Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    PokerV is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post

    Default Warning: Sportingbet cheated 218.307,80€ of my affiliate revenue in less than 2 years

    I want to make you aware of an affiliate scam, I experienced with Sportingbet.

    I`m probably one of the bigger Sportingbet sports betting affiliates and was able to send a lot of players to the brand from 2008-2012 (6797 new depositors in that period), I also brought one of the best players in the Sportingbet history (he lost 744.228,34 € in total, in roughly 7 years from May 2009 until April 2016). From 2013 on, after some Google updates and a much more competitive SEO environment until today, my intake of new depositing customers dropped (f.e. 275 in 2013, 236 in 2014) and is today in 2016 at approximately 5-10 NDAs per months (so I`m still sending them new customers).

    To save costs, Sportingbet decided to cut my account significantly. From the 1st June in 2014 a new clause was introduced, that new and old players are only getting paid for 24 months. So after 24 months, I will receive 0,00 % for every player I brought them. From that date (1st June in 2014) until today (end of April 2016), the players I acquired (1013 were active in that period) cashed in 3.187.649,88 € and generated 777.053,55 € in net revenue for Sportingbet (see screenshots). The thing is just, I received only 53.660,94 € instead of 271.968,74 € (this sum would be 35% from 777.053,55 €, it is the commission rate I had before the clause was applied). This means, that Sportingbet scammed 218.307,80 € until end of April in 2016 (in not quite 2 years) from me.

    See screenshots:
    (deposits/net revenue/total commission/player count): prnt.sc/b9eh1f (closer look: prnt.sc/b9ecm7)
    (former commission plan >35%): prnt.sc/b9ecr4
    (commission actually paid in that period): prnt.sc/b9ecym

    I recommend highly to be careful with any “partnerships” with Sportingbet. They don’t keep their promises and are those kind of operators, which will shave you when you don`t deliver the amount of customers they expect from you. I do understand to lower commission percentages when your traffic drops, but not to cut you like this. My actual commission rate was 6.9% (this is 53.660,94 € from 777.053,55 €). In overall, this payout is even worse than with the affiliate program from bwin. Is this how you should treat partners? Nevertheless, I can imagine to work with Sportingbet again closer, if they approach me to solve this.

    What do you think about it? Please comment and share!

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PokerV For This Useful Post:

    bastardhunter (18 July 2016), casinopapa (31 May 2016)

  3. #2
    -Shay- is offline Public Member
    Join Date
    November 2012
    Posts
    3,062
    Thanks
    12,211
    Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,686 Posts

    Default

    I do not understand any retroactive changes. I give you that programs can legally and rightfully change your earnings rate and the length of time they're going to pay you on NEW players going forward - but not retroactively. The deal the players were on the day you brought them in is the deal that should be honored for that player full stop.

  4. #3
    justbookies is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Posts
    1,285
    Thanks
    521
    Thanked 863 Times in 512 Posts

    Default

    I don't understand your timelines. In 2009 they brought in the 24 months clause (did you not notice it existed then?), if they also brought it in again in 2014 then when did they drop it between those dates? Doesn't make sense because I know for absolute certain it was first introduced in 2009.

    Also, they many years ago closed their program entirely and stole all referrals. I know because that is when they stole from me. When they then opened it up again after a break of a couple of years I was busy warning anyone and everyone to avoid these crooks.

    I am very sorry they have behaved true to form and stolen so much money from you - they are crooks. But any firm can go rogue at any time, not just SBT. It only takes a change of ownership or attitude. Spread your traffic about as evenly as possible (advice I fail to stick to myself).

    You know laws do exist to protect affiliates (the legal system). Nobody can agree to pay lifetime and then arbitrarily change that to say 24 months. You cant sign an agreement that states "we can change this however we like" - it is a joke and would not be upheld in court (according to lawyers I have spoken to). However we had this particular debate with SkyBet and that's all it ever was, talk.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to justbookies For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (28 May 2016), casinopapa (31 May 2016)

  6. #4
    justbookies is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Posts
    1,285
    Thanks
    521
    Thanked 863 Times in 512 Posts

    Default

    Sorry to post again, but have been thinking about this. You started promoting them in 2008 and probably never noticed the change to 24 months in 2009 and the earliest of those 2009 referrals would start to drop off your account 2011 onwards. I have it noted that when they changed ownership the 24 months thing never changed, but I do know they then got complicated with different affiliate programs for different regions, so maybe that is part of the confusion as the terms were maybe different depending on the region?

  7. #5
    justbookies is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Posts
    1,285
    Thanks
    521
    Thanked 863 Times in 512 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    I give you that programs can legally and rightfully change your earnings rate and the length of time they're going to pay you on NEW players going forward
    Nope, not even this. You signed a contract saying otherwise. They can't change that unilaterally, not without your agreement.
    I think you are maybe getting too used to the abuse that you think it's normal!

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to justbookies For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (28 May 2016)

  9. #6
    Syndicate is offline Public Member
    Join Date
    October 2014
    Posts
    403
    Thanks
    193
    Thanked 260 Times in 163 Posts

    Default

    Did you take a copy of the terms and conditions that you agreed to. Do you have the original contract?. We see a lot of such complaints on here, but i've never heard of anyone litigating --- i know i would in a New York minute. While i realise you have to weight up the chance of winning against perspective costs, it's a chance worth taking if you have some documentation (and it's suitable of course). I'm always surprised to hear big affiliates not do anything about these sports agencies reneging!!

    Never be afraid to rattle the cage!!

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Syndicate For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (28 May 2016), Triple7 (28 May 2016)

  11. #7
    TheGooner's Avatar
    TheGooner is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    March 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,259
    Thanks
    1,949
    Thanked 4,211 Times in 2,004 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    They can't change that unilaterally, not without your agreement.
    This is not an employment agreement - which usually DOES have some protections regarding renegotiation.

    There is not a jurisdiction in the world that says a contract of indistinct length must remain the same forever into the future - just because parties cannot agree.

    These are business agreements and generally if an agreement does not have a fixed term then parties CAN change it for future deals. Typically getting parties to agree is best, but in a sales/supply agreement usually it is the party paying the cash (customer) that sets / resets the terms and the party supplying the service (supplier) that gets to negotiate, or failing that choose as to whether to continue supply or not.

    It's the same the world over, in many different situations, from property leases, to product supply, and service contracts. When contracts expire (or are of indeterminate length) then they can be redefined and/or terminated.

    You are right when you say you don't have to accept the newly offered terms, but typically your only options are to renegotiate, or failing agreement to terminate and stop supplying ... there is no right to continue on the original terms.(*)

    I am not saying that it's retroactive - programs (clients) do NOT have the right to change terms for past activities, but there is plenty of legal scope for redefining future activities.

    Or course if the program is draconian (5% terms, limited payments) then it's likely the supplier will terminate.
    See Skybet, SportingBet, 888.con, FailTilt Poker etc

    ---------------------------------------

    (*) This just my opinion based on 30+ years of business in the corporate world and affiliating. It may not be law everywhere in all circumstances (eg Employment contracts) but it's pretty much a Western business standard.

    I've been involved in renegotiating dozens of contracts on both sides of the table (client and supplier) and generally there either is a willingness on both parties to continue and the deals are straight forward, or else the contract will terminate.
    Last edited by TheGooner; 28 May 2016 at 2:58 pm. Reason: more

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TheGooner For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (28 May 2016), Syndicate (29 May 2016)

  13. #8
    TheGooner's Avatar
    TheGooner is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    March 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,259
    Thanks
    1,949
    Thanked 4,211 Times in 2,004 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    In 2009 they brought in the 24 months clause (did you not notice it existed then?), if they also brought it in again in 2014 then when did they drop it between those dates? Doesn't make sense because I know for absolute certain it was first introduced in 2009
    Agreed. I was looking over my notes - and my last SportingBet invoice was in 2009 as we dropped them after the clause was introduced.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to TheGooner For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (28 May 2016)

  15. #9
    Triple7 is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    January 2015
    Posts
    2,813
    Thanks
    2,040
    Thanked 2,441 Times in 1,319 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
    Did you take a copy of the terms and conditions that you agreed to. Do you have the original contract?. We see a lot of such complaints on here, but i've never heard of anyone litigating --- i know i would in a New York minute. While i realise you have to weight up the chance of winning against perspective costs, it's a chance worth taking if you have some documentation (and it's suitable of course). I'm always surprised to hear big affiliates not do anything about these sports agencies reneging!!

    Never be afraid to rattle the cage!!
    You hit the needle on the head.

    It's some work, but all the programs I do business with, I got the terms I've signed up for saved. Just in case they do not follow their own terms. I can always have a look back at the terms I've signed up for.

    Also, if affiliate managers promise things, I ask them to confirm it by mail. I have learned my lesson when I agree with a program a higher than default commission. It was like a promo for the first three months and we agreed to keep this commission % also after the promo period. After 8 or 9 months, they've put me back to default, without any announcement. I saw in the affiliate software that commission was half of what it should be.

    Discussion led to nowhere, of course, as they said it was a promo, they forgot to put it back to default and that I should be happy that they didn't put it back earlier. I had no confirmation because things were agreed in a telephone call. I looked hours if I could find something in SMS-history, mail history or Skype-history, but nope. Now I just look in my archive of program X if I can find the agreement. If it's there, then I got a valid point in the discussion. If not, than better I won't spend my energy in battles I will not win.

    Now I ask affiliate managers to confirm what we agreed. Sometimes, some of them say things like "hey, you can trust us", "We'll see end of the month how things are going and then I perhaps will retroactively put a commission higher" or (about NCO) "If you have a big NCO, we will discuss what to do"... In that cases, it's no deal for me anymore.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Triple7 For This Useful Post:

    Syndicate (29 May 2016)

  17. #10
    Syndicate is offline Public Member
    Join Date
    October 2014
    Posts
    403
    Thanks
    193
    Thanked 260 Times in 163 Posts

    Default

    Well done -- shows the signs of experience. I think in such a business you have three types of people:

    - Those who thought it through, with the aim of avoiding later confrontation.
    - The once bit twice shy scenario, people who learn from experience.
    - I'll be alright Jack - those that think for today and not tomorrow.

    I'm sure i was in the second category somewhere down the line (probably fellow bookmakers not paying me at the time), but i would at least like to think i fit into the top category now. Experience tells me to say no to something i don't like, and being financially there i can afford not to to unnecessary risks. In fact, you can say when you have got something, you have more to lose.

    I would also like to pick up on what Gooner mentioned, because he's right to point out that the word ''indefinite'' (not clearly defined or determined) is inconclusive and often misinterpreted in contract law - which in effect gives little protection. You can argue the word ''life-time'' contract is more suitable if it defines who's life!

    Maybe one way to go would be to have ''fixed term'' renewable contract with a release clause that qualifies the ''affiliate'' to become his/her last twelve months earning * number agreed.

    What did that advert (UK) used to tell us - Think before you drink before you drive!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triple7 View Post
    You hit the needle on the head.

    It's some work, but all the programs I do business with, I got the terms I've signed up for saved. Just in case they do not follow their own terms. I can always have a look back at the terms I've signed up for.

    Also, if affiliate managers promise things, I ask them to confirm it by mail. I have learned my lesson when I agree with a program a higher than default commission. It was like a promo for the first three months and we agreed to keep this commission % also after the promo period. After 8 or 9 months, they've put me back to default, without any announcement. I saw in the affiliate software that commission was half of what it should be.

    Discussion led to nowhere, of course, as they said it was a promo, they forgot to put it back to default and that I should be happy that they didn't put it back earlier. I had no confirmation because things were agreed in a telephone call. I looked hours if I could find something in SMS-history, mail history or Skype-history, but nope. Now I just look in my archive of program X if I can find the agreement. If it's there, then I got a valid point in the discussion. If not, than better I won't spend my energy in battles I will not win.

    Now I ask affiliate managers to confirm what we agreed. Sometimes, some of them say things like "hey, you can trust us", "We'll see end of the month how things are going and then I perhaps will retroactively put a commission higher" or (about NCO) "If you have a big NCO, we will discuss what to do"... In that cases, it's no deal for me anymore.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Syndicate For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (29 May 2016)

  19. #11
    PokerV is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    I don't understand your timelines. In 2009 they brought in the 24 months clause (did you not notice it existed then?), if they also brought it in again in 2014 then when did they drop it between those dates? Doesn't make sense because I know for absolute certain it was first introduced in 2009.
    Not in my case. If was introduced for me from June 2014 onwards, never before. You can see in the screenshot, that the month earlier (May 2014) was paid on 35% (prntscr.com/ba50z5), as well as the time before.

  20. #12
    justbookies is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Posts
    1,285
    Thanks
    521
    Thanked 863 Times in 512 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PokerV View Post
    Not in my case. If was introduced for me from June 2014 onwards, never before. You can see in the screenshot, that the month earlier (May 2014) was paid on 35% (prntscr.com/ba50z5), as well as the time before.
    I can't see any of your 'screenshots'. But be aware if you first started noting changes in June 2014 then that relates only to players referred by you in June 2012 (who are dropping off after two years). If they actually introduced it in June 2014 then it would not affect any of your stats until June 2016 (a date yet to be reached, so your current stats would not yet be affected in any way). It suggests to me most of your referrals were actually referred to them from June 2012 onwards.

    If you have the original terms then take them to court because you would win in the UK for sure. I have been into this with a contract lawyer, specifically relating to these farcical affiliate contracts.

    I have also challenged a contract in court personally in my other business (property) and the judge just put a red line through anything that was patently unenforceable - like terms that make no sense or terms that are unfair (like stating they can change the contract any time, lol!). That last one is so ridiculous it really is laughable. It is just put in by them to keep ignorant affiliates in their box. The lawyers who wrote it know it is totally unenforceable. Yet that is the clause used to change your terms by sportingbet and steal your money.

  21. #13
    Syndicate is offline Public Member
    Join Date
    October 2014
    Posts
    403
    Thanks
    193
    Thanked 260 Times in 163 Posts

    Default

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ciz4liUUoAAaZa5.jpg

    Just think of it this way !!
    Last edited by Syndicate; 30 May 2016 at 9:22 am.

  22. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Syndicate For This Useful Post:

    -Shay- (30 May 2016), bastardhunter (18 July 2016), TheSpry (1 June 2016)

  23. #14
    casinopapa's Avatar
    casinopapa is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    March 2016
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    35
    Thanks
    46
    Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts

    Default

    Thanks for the warning, we're not currently dealing with them and shall stay clear!
    Keith Papallo, Partner Accounts Manager
    ** Contact me for casino deal offers or to sponsor a post on our site **

    Email: support@casinopapa.co.uk
    Website:
    www.casinopapa.co.uk



    Facebook: facebook.com/casinopapa/
    Twitter: twitter.com/casinopapauk
    Instagram: instagram.com/casinopapa
    Pinterest: pinterest.com/casinopapa
    Google+: plus.google.com/+CasinopapaUkreviews

  24. #15
    PokerV is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    I can't see any of your 'screenshots'. But be aware if you first started noting changes in June 2014 then that relates only to players referred by you in June 2012 (who are dropping off after two years). If they actually introduced it in June 2014 then it would not affect any of your stats until June 2016 (a date yet to be reached, so your current stats would not yet be affected in any way). It suggests to me most of your referrals were actually referred to them from June 2012 onwards.
    That`s not the case. I can also post screenshots with the NDC numbers until 2012 from every year before. Btw, I can`t post links here because i`m under 5 posts, thats why i copy them like that: prntscr.com/ba50z5 (without www)
    Pls be aware, that I`m not working in the UK market, i think it was the only market they applied the "24 months clause" and then took it back because the echo of the affiliates was big. So the timespan with the introduction and ending of this one in the UK market didn`t apply to me. It was an individual decision from Sportingbet for me, at another time.

  25. #16
    PokerV is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    12
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    Thanks guys so far for your time and for posting feedback! That`s great.

    Anybody here who had luck with a similar case bringing it to court or maybe somebody, who spread something like this online and was approached then by the operator with a refund agreement for taking it down?

  26. #17
    justbookies is offline Private Member
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Posts
    1,285
    Thanks
    521
    Thanked 863 Times in 512 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PokerV View Post
    Anybody here who had luck with a similar case bringing it to court or maybe somebody, who spread something like this online and was approached then by the operator with a refund agreement for taking it down?
    If you read the skybet thread you'll realise it's all talk no action on this forum. Lots of threats that soon evaporate. If you want to protect yourself you'll need to do it yourself.
    As for being paid to remove bad publicity, the operators would all be bankrupt. They don't care about whining affiliates because there is never any comeback. This type of thread gets opened up about some firm or other on a weekly basis.

  27. #18
    bastardhunter is offline Public Member
    Join Date
    July 2016
    Posts
    16
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    dodgy bookie indeed...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •