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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun O'neill View Post

    this is a real chicken and egg situation and I dont expect companies like the one Alexs works for to lose money due to this.

    Paula do you think operators that except US players should be allowed to attend?

    Thanks

    Shaun
    Hi Shaun,

    Here's what happens. A program screws and rips off affiliates. They take that ill-gotten money from affilites(and/or players) and give it to alex's company to get new affiliate blood by displaying smack dab in the middle of affiliate town. Screw the existing affs. So we could call what is going into the pockets of these conference hosts blood money. The irony is that it is called an Affiliate Conference when the affiliate is not top priority. That is according to your way of seeing it because it's about the money.

    I don't think Alex would want to be seen in the light that it's all about the money. I don't believe that.

    It's like Casinomeister giving a Player Conference and having Gambling Wages display because of the money they give him. The money comes from the players they have ripped off. That would go over like a lead balloon LOL. It would never happen. No matter the price.

    As far as US, not sure how it relates.

  2. #22
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    "Honey I'm Home"

    Hope all is well - I just got back from a 3 week holiday so can't complain

    Easy bit first -
    Corbus, drop me an emai with a 150x50 ersion of your logo and I will sort that (good to see you in CT)
    Mojo - Ashley Madison aren't exhibiting now, agreed it was an odd one, I thought it was a dating site but turned out they are a dating site for married people!!!

    Right - programs -

    Logos of AGD, GAU etc in the brochure is a great idea and something I will 100% make happen - Should be very effective as the brochure is a tool many affiliates take away and use for research to add new programs as it contains descriptions and contact details.

    Extreme Rogue programs - We are never going to let the likes of Grand Prive etc etc exhibit at one of our events as not only is it not good long term but also if they aren't paying affiliates/players then they aren't going to pay us

    Now though with predatory - its a lot harder as I have also had many emails from affiliates saying that I should let these guys exhibit as it helps get problems solved and results - For example look at Bonus Streak's post in Casinomeister thread you started on this as well the posts the last time we discussed this where people said we shouldn't be the ones to judge and also again that they want the programs there to sort these problems.

    There is also a issue with timing - For example one program may sign a contract with me and then turn "bad" or may be "bad" one day and "good" the next.

    I do agree with Mojo that as an "offline portal" of information through our mag and events we have a responsibility to be ethical and in turn to present credible content and promotions to our delegates and readers. But it is also very very hard to find a balance when I come across a whole variety of opinions on a program ranging from major anger to 100% happiness so who am I to put the axe down and say "no you can't exhibit" partiuclary when a) I still see them on the online affiate portals/forums/watchdogs/associations and b) a large number of good affiliates often disagree a program is bad

    Anyway - Sorry for the long winded answer - So in conclusion

    1) We will add GAU and AGD logos to the guide
    2) Rogue programs will not exhibit
    3) Still need to make a proper final decision on predatory as I personally don't thinks its clean cut and would also like to see decisions supported by all information suppliers/communities (offline and online)
    iGB Affiliate - The biggest magazine and events for affiliates in igaming

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexpratt View Post
    Logos of AGD, GAU etc in the brochure...

    1) We will add GAU and AGD logos to the guide


    This sounds awesome!!!

    Seems like there's a couple of things missing, tho...


    Oh yea! The APCW and GPWA are missing... as usual... from these events. it's been quite obvious over the years that everyone was welcomed to speak and/or co-brand these things except our organizations. And it's mostly been expected due to the heavy CAP control in the past. And yet, it continues into 2010, and it makes me wonder.



    .

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    Welcome Home Alex. Ahhh 3 weeks of bliss I hope!

    Excellent post as usual. Thank you for taking the time.

    Re ashely madison. I had no idea there was such a site LOL. I see many radio stations and other venues are dropping them. Glad you dropped them, just more fuel for the anti gambling fire.

    Logos of AGD, GAU etc in the brochure is a great idea and something I will 100% make happen - Should be very effective as the brochure is a tool many affiliates take away and use for research to add new programs as it contains descriptions and contact details.
    That is excellent news! Very effective indeed and letting affs know there is somewhere they can go if they need help.

    Now though with predatory - its a lot harder as I have also had many emails from affiliates saying that I should let these guys exhibit as it helps get problems solved and results - For example look at Bonus Streak's post in Casinomeister thread you started on this as well the posts the last time we discussed this where people said we shouldn't be the ones to judge and also again that they want the programs there to sort these problems.
    I agree it's difficult. While I can understand the pov, I cannot agree with bonustreak (no offense bonustreak :wave) however. Talking at a conference at the expense of risking other affiliates should not be the answer. It puts affs in danger and we'll see them posting here down the road of getting ripped off. There is no way to tell what the outcome would be of these talks. It may do no good at all and meanwhile sucked in new affs. It helped with PS but talking at a conf should never be the only option.

    That said, with all the variables - a warning in brouchures etc instead of dis-allowing is probably more reasonable and feasable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    It might be easier to make a list of programs that should not be allowed at the show to recruit newbie affiliates. The list should include:

    • Vegas Affiliates
    • Affiliate Lounge
    • Cpays
    • Grand Prive / Villa Fortuna
    • Absolute Poker / Ultimate Bet / Chipleader
    I agree with Engineer here. I would add 'not showing rogues and warning affs of predatory terms'. Fortunatly, there is not a whole lot of predatorys. Would you be able to also mark predatory programs with the agd and gau warning seals in your pubications?

    Not allowing rogues takes care of itself. Kudos!!!!!!!

    Alex, I really feel that these conferences are a powerful ally to affiliates to assist and give incentive to programs to work together with us for everyones benefit. It also gives more credibility to those representing online gambling with excellence and ethics IMHO.

    As always, thanks for listening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Integrity View Post
    This sounds awesome!!!

    Seems like there's a couple of things missing, tho...


    Oh yea! The APCW and GPWA are missing... as usual... from these events. it's been quite obvious over the years that everyone was welcomed to speak and/or co-brand these things except our organizations. And it's mostly been expected due to the heavy CAP control in the past. And yet, it continues into 2010, and it makes me wonder.



    .
    Missed this. Yes please include GPWA and APCW!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo View Post
    Missed this. Yes please include GPWA and APCW!

    We appreciate the thought, Mojo. And we understand that neither the GAU or AGD has anything to do with the decisions made for this event. I really doubt, however, that giving the GPWA or the APCW any additional "credibility" by associating us with this event is very high on the agenda.


    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Integrity View Post
    This sounds awesome!!!

    Seems like there's a couple of things missing, tho...


    Oh yea! The APCW and GPWA are missing... as usual... from these events. it's been quite obvious over the years that everyone was welcomed to speak and/or co-brand these things except our organizations. And it's mostly been expected due to the heavy CAP control in the past. And yet, it continues into 2010, and it makes me wonder.

    .
    Hey Mate - Hope all is well and you had a good Christmas -

    Didn't include GPWA and APCW on purpose, same as why there is no CAP, PAP, PAL, CAL, GAP, GIA etc etc - Reason is (please tell me if I am wrong) to be on these sites you simply pay, ok you need to have a decent enough outfit which most programs have but after that you just pay and then most of the time you stay whatever happens after that.......With AGD and GAU my impression is that to be on there is importantly a) FREE and b) decided purely on passing certain affiliate friendly conditions -

    In addition to this we don't have the space for all these logos on each profile which is just a third of an A5 page, and also has to include the company description, contact details, and logo.

    Re having APCW and GPWA at the events generally -

    I don't think this is true, GPWA gets a free stand (worth 4,500) profile/logo/contact details in the guide, logo on the site (sorry looks like its dropped off, will add that, my bad) and distribution of magazine in media area, and if someone wanted to speak we would of course consider that session with all the others and in the last 18 months or so I don't thinlk we have actually had a session application from GPWA -

    You will also notice CAP has never spoken at an event and never had a stand in 3 yrs until London coming up so I really don't think its unblanced, although tbh I think that is fine if it was, as that is part of negotiation and what either side is giving. Look at EIG where iGB gets a stand, a bag insert, a heightened profile, but eGR just gets distribution - This is because I do a hell of a lot more for that show than eGR does.

    With APCW - This is partly my fault as I have been so busy and haven't got round to contacting you re a markting deal (same with a load of other sites/mags etc) but have now hired a marketing person so hopefully we will be sorted - More than interested to do a marketing deal with you guys though so please just drop me an email with ideas of how we can promote each other and we can nail that down
    iGB Affiliate - The biggest magazine and events for affiliates in igaming

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  12. #28
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    Hi Alex,

    I do appreciate your detailed reply, and you have valid points. I understand your reasoning, and you know I appreciate the scope of work it takes to pull off an event like this. And the events are always fun and well planned.


    To be fair, the APCW does have paid memberships. However, we do not just accept any program that applies. In fact, we have recently turned down two separate membership requests on ethical grounds. We would not accept their money. Of course, we do not publicize this for obvious reasons.


    I thank you for your offer to expand our relationship, and will be in touch with Michael to see what we can work out. To be completely honest, tho, after all that the APCW has done to stand up for the affiliate community as a whole... from our work with Grand Prive to our leadership in auditing and viral video... it's does seem just a little odd to see most everyone else given a place at the table, including CAP TV, which currently isn't even operational.


    .

  13. #29
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    Hei Paula

    It was just a question nothing more.

    Shaun

    Quote Originally Posted by mojo View Post
    Hi Shaun,

    Here's what happens. A program screws and rips off affiliates. They take that ill-gotten money from affilites(and/or players) and give it to alex's company to get new affiliate blood by displaying smack dab in the middle of affiliate town. Screw the existing affs. So we could call what is going into the pockets of these conference hosts blood money. The irony is that it is called an Affiliate Conference when the affiliate is not top priority. That is according to your way of seeing it because it's about the money.

    I don't think Alex would want to be seen in the light that it's all about the money. I don't believe that.

    It's like Casinomeister giving a Player Conference and having Gambling Wages display because of the money they give him. The money comes from the players they have ripped off. That would go over like a lead balloon LOL. It would never happen. No matter the price.

    As far as US, not sure how it relates.

  14. #30
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    Lightbulb

    I understand how the US accepting sites question stands up - and I believe that it is a valid point - or perhaps half a point - but that can be expanded upon.

    WARNING - RANT MODE x DEVILS ADVOCATE TURNED ON -
    Take everything here with a grain of salt - I'll exaggerate to try and make a point.

    The US government clearly does not like it's citizens playing at online casinos and has declared it illegal (or tried to) with the UIGEA.

    It could well be argued that many of the tin-pot under-funded online only gambling sites that continue to chase and accept US players are unethical for doing so ... and should not be allowed space.

    Futhermore many of these sites appear to be strong-arming affilaites or putting predatory player terms on bonuses. Based on threads of the last 72 hours both Europartners and SuperiorShare could be included in that group easily.

    Finally a point for Alex to consider ...

    Given the UK government's stance on online gambling activity and it's declaration of UK whitelisted jurisdictions it could be argued that gambling companies and affiliates who pitch these carribean "licensed" and "regulated" entities to both US and UK players are actually breaking UK gambling law - and therefore the conference may be breaking UK gambling law too if it allows them to advertise openly ?!!


    RANT MODE x DEVILS ADVOCATE TURNED OFF

    I guess that my point is that without a single black/white list then some of the grey sites will get through ... and depending on where affiliates live, and what affiliates market then different issues will appear higher in the minds of varoius affiliates ... but there should be some basic quality control that means the like of openly rogue groups like Grand Prive, Cpays etc are not welcomed.

    But as I have no intention of travelling to the 2010 London Conference this year - it's probably all a moot point to me.

    Have a great conference ladies and gents - and just ignore the booths that you don't like !

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    No offense taken Paula we are all allowed to have our own thoughts and opinions

    With that said we( AGD) are looking forward to stopping by Affiliate Lounge's booth to speak about their predatory terms, and I hope we can come home from London with good news for all affiliates. Just like we did in Budapest where the talks were obviously successful with Playshare. Granted not everyone knows what is being said etc during the meetings and I think my reputation can speak for itself and you can bet I am fighting hard for ALL affiliates in the business and doing what I can to make it a fair playing field in this business for us all. I give all my time and effort freely to support AGD and it's cause and that will not stop I can promise you that.

    If there will be a leader from GAU at the conference maybe we could go together and speak to the programs we have issues with in London?

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    I know you do your best Christine and pity the fool who messes with you.

    I think Paul is going but I'm not sure. If my going to a conference would make a difference I would go. I don't feel that conf should be the end all of solving our problems. While there was success with PS, conf meetings were just one part of it and not the whole solution. There were many involved that deserve credit too.

    Personally, I would rather fly to their offices for a meeting. Using a conf venue to depend on to solve our problems does not make sense to me. We will agree to disagree on that. That said, I am glad you are there and your rep definately speaks for itself. Thank you for your efforts. I have my own reasons why I don't go that I won't burden anyone with. Financially I am able to go but I choose not to.

    On a side note, and nothing to do with you bonustreak, there is a question as to why I care at all since I rarely go to a conf. I can sum it up pretty easily.

    Conferences are constantly in my face.

    The closer a conf gets, the more emails I get. The more it's on forums. It's on every site when I check my stats. I can hardly ignore it.

    I feel bad for affiliates who barely make any money and for those who have been ripped off. How can they go? Does it matter if one goes? Are they 2nd class affs if they don't? They don't get the sweet deals. Let's not kid ourselves.

    There is A LOT of money poured into these conferences while some affiliates are suffering. Look at our donations threads last month. Terms are changing while thousands are spent on confs. What's up with that? I can hardly ignore it, can I. That's just the way I am. No politics, nothing to gain here. Just my annoying opinions. And a desire to simply do the right thing.
    Last edited by mojo; 2 January 2010 at 6:30 pm. Reason: add

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  20. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    I understand how the US accepting sites question stands up - and I believe that it is a valid point - or perhaps half a point - but that can be expanded upon.

    WARNING - RANT MODE x DEVILS ADVOCATE TURNED ON -
    Take everything here with a grain of salt - I'll exaggerate to try and make a point.

    The US government clearly does not like it's citizens playing at online casinos and has declared it illegal (or tried to) with the UIGEA.

    It could well be argued that many of the tin-pot under-funded online only gambling sites that continue to chase and accept US players are unethical for doing so ... and should not be allowed space.

    Futhermore many of these sites appear to be strong-arming affilaites or putting predatory player terms on bonuses. Based on threads of the last 72 hours both Europartners and SuperiorShare could be included in that group easily.

    Finally a point for Alex to consider ...

    Given the UK government's stance on online gambling activity and it's declaration of UK whitelisted jurisdictions it could be argued that gambling companies and affiliates who pitch these carribean "licensed" and "regulated" entities to both US and UK players are actually breaking UK gambling law - and therefore the conference may be breaking UK gambling law too if it allows them to advertise openly ?!!


    RANT MODE x DEVILS ADVOCATE TURNED OFF

    I guess that my point is that without a single black/white list then some of the grey sites will get through ... and depending on where affiliates live, and what affiliates market then different issues will appear higher in the minds of varoius affiliates ... but there should be some basic quality control that means the like of openly rogue groups like Grand Prive, Cpays etc are not welcomed.

    But as I have no intention of travelling to the 2010 London Conference this year - it's probably all a moot point to me.

    Have a great conference ladies and gents - and just ignore the booths that you don't like !
    Have to agree with a lot of what TheGooner wrote here.

    There is definately a cultural divide between the USA and Europe in attitudes right across the industry and it is very difficult to see how it will be bridged anytime soon.

    The Gooner is also right about the legal questions, something i have personally wondered myself about.

    I agree with a lot that has been written by others but other than the downright obvious like Grand Prive it is very difficult to define what is rogue and what is not.

    What is rogue in one affiliates eyes may not be rogue in another affiliates eyes and the recent thread on Ladbrokes is a classic example of this.
    Arthritis Care

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  21. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betpartners View Post

    What is rogue in one affiliates eyes may not be rogue in another affiliates eyes and the recent thread on Ladbrokes is a classic example of this.
    We are talking about obvious rogues. Those that have overwhelming rogueness about them. Ladbrokes is not a 'classic example'.

    Predatory is a different animal.

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    There are some Paula that would argue that Ladbrokes, William Hills and many others are rogue.

    What is not so obvious to you and i Paula may be far more obvious to others.

    But i do understand what you are saying and i agree with your main points.

    There should be some form of quality control instigated to at the very least warn new affiliates.

    I just do not think it is as easy as what you may think to define rogue that is universally accepted.
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    I cannot remember them all but there are a few programs doing contest to fly affiliates all expenses paid to the conference that is pretty cool! I think Jackpot Capital is one of them. There are many first timers going to London this year and I think they will make such good business deals and contacts they will continue to go to the conferences. In business you have to spend money to make money so with that in mind it is a good investment for me personally. Another reason I attend is because there are many EU based programs that attend these events and for me it makes sense to get there meet these people face to face and start building a nice working relationship with them. The conferences have many good things that happen such as the new first time panel that Bryan Baily will be moderating it is for the players, that to me is awesome and I want to be there to see it. SEO panels and discussions are really great to see as well to me being there is easier to comprehend what they are saying and I absorb it better this way compared to reading an article. New payment processors, new Software to come out there are so many business reasons on why affiliates should attend these events.

    This isn't about who makes what as far as I am concerned, I don't make it my business to know what others make. I just know that I work my azz off and for me attending these conferences is my own reward.

    Donations, I think there are many programs that make donations to charities close to their home or country. I know of several that did Christmas donations in favor of gifts as well. I have personally given to many charities this year and if I could give to everyone of them out there I would for sure but that is just impossible.

    Conferences are not going to stop and yes there are many of them and the best thing about that is we as affiliates can pick and choose which ones we want to attend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Betpartners View Post

    I just do not think it is as easy as what you may think to define rogue that is universally accepted.
    Nothing is easy and if it were everyone would do it. What we need to remember is that folks at confs are making money off of us, do we not have a say.

    It's up to us to figure this out. It's all I'm asking. I don't make the rules but I have every right, as an aff, to have a say.

    Thanks for listening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo View Post
    Nothing is easy and if it were everyone would do it. What we need to remember is that folks at confs are making money off of us, do we not have a say.

    It's up to us to figure this out. It's all I'm asking. I don't make the rules but I have every right, as an aff, to have a say.

    Thanks for listening.
    Your dead right Paula, you certainly do have the right as an affiliate to make your voice heard, something i absolutely agree with and while we do disagree on some subjects sometimes, i know we agree on the fundamental issues facing affiliates these days.

    I believe you were right in raising this issue and i know it can be a sticky subject but as in all issues that are raised differing voices will make their opinions heard.

    The trick is and always will be to find common ground that we can move forward with and these sort of debates do in fact assist us all.

    On that i am sure we do agree
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonustreak View Post
    Conferences are not going to stop and yes there are many of them and the best thing about that is we as affiliates can pick and choose which ones we want to attend.
    With all due respect, some of us cannot pick and choose. I think you missed my point.

    I know confs are not going to stop. However there is a BIGGER picture.

    What is happening here is the same thing that happened at CAP. Lou and WARREN said those who don't go to confs are NOT serious about their businesses.

    Well I don't go and I am dam serious about my biz. I feel we are strongarmed sometimes on these confs! I wish you all a great time but it's getting old for the rest of us, no matter the reason we don't go!!!

    That's great for you Christine that you are privvy to all the new and exclusive things. However, I can't go. Many others can't go. What is your advice to them?
    Last edited by mojo; 2 January 2010 at 7:31 pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo View Post
    What is happening here is the same thing that happened at CAP. Lou and WARREN said those who don't go to confs are NOT serious about their businesses.
    Personally I don't believe this - There are lots of MASSIVE affiliates that don't attend our events (although I am working on that ), and some affiliates that attend one every now and again and others who come to all of them.

    Of course attending gives you an advantage for a number of reasons but at the same time working hard, learning, improving your offering, making new deals etc can give you an advantage as well and all these things can be done at home. We even video a number of the sessions from the conference online now http://www.igbaffiliate.com/content/video so you can learn without attending

    I think it comes down to each individual - some people gets heaps out of the conferences and genuinely grow their business through the improved deals, knowledge, contacts, experience etc but at the same time many can't attend for a whole number of reasons but that doesn't mean your business has to suffer just means you have a different approach.
    iGB Affiliate - The biggest magazine and events for affiliates in igaming

  30. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alexpratt For This Useful Post:

    bonustreak (3 January 2010), Shaun O'neill (4 January 2010)

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