Would you use a currency like this for gambling?

[Makkafon]

Imagine a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, but completely free and instant. Also free of the volatility of the Bitcoin. Meaning it'd be stable in the terms of a fiat currency, such as the dollar. This would of course also mean a lot less fees for casinos, resulting in the players return for their money compared to normal casinos would be significantly higher.
It could also be used on Ebay/Amazon/Alibaba and other major merchants.
Also you could comfortably store the currency because it's value is stable.

Pros vs Bitcoin - Significantly faster, totally free, no volatility in value.

Thanks for all input!

[TheGooner]

You are in make-believe land. Even government back currencies are not stable - they vary against each other significantly over the course of a year due to economic conditions. So it's hard to envision the unit that you are proposing.

I can gamble with currencies right now - why would I convert to this magical internet unit of value - even if it did exist?

[Makkafon]

I see your point but I believe you misunderstood me. I never meant to say it was fully stable, nothing really is. My point was it is stable in terms of a currency, such as the dollar. I should've made myself more clear.

The main reasons for doing so would be to avoid the high fees which you pay directly or indirectly by using credit cards. Or the very slow transfers involved with bank-wire. You could also near-instantly withdraw and deposit between supported sites and/or globally transfer (completely free) to a friend or others. In the end merchants, operators and customers win.

Thanks for your time!

[JackTenSuited]

This would of course also mean a lot less fees for casinos, resulting in the players return for their money compared to normal casinos would be significantly higher.

As if the savings would ever get passed on to the players

[TheGooner]

Makkafon - it still sounds like magic. It would be hard to be stable to the US dollar - unless it was the US dollar.
And what if I have Euros or GBP or AUD and would prefer to be stable to those?

You probably need to be a bit more forthcoming about the idea - because the biggest issue will be trust in the new "currency".

I can sort of understand a theory that people deposit dollars and get some sort of token that is worth a dollar instead. Then theoretically you might be able to transfer those around with less red tape - but you are still going to need a whopper of a system if you expect them to be compatible with ebay / amazon / Alibaba and all the casinos / sportsbooks.

That's a lot of integration code, quite a bit of hardware, and a sizable number of people to make it all work correctly with each site. All of this costs - and those costs will be borne out in fees - so how is it going to be cheaper.

And then you have the trust issue.

If I have a US dollar then it is accepted anywhere. If I have a Makkafon unit then it is accepted where you have integrated AND it relies on you being there tomorrow to convert it back and send it to me.

It's not insurmountable - but the trust issue, and the integration processes are VERY big hurdles to jump.

[universal4]

If it works at eBay and Amazon, it will NOT be accepted at unregulated gambling establishments.

Over the years many payment methods have attempted what you propose, and actually Neteller came really close years ago until the US Government decided they didn't want it to be used the way it was being used and seized 60 million dollars. (I think that was the amount) Neteller later made a deal and paid a total of $138 million. (that settlement was in 2007)

A fairly long list of payment methods have come and gone since then, and none of them ever had the penetration that Neteller had achieved. In fact Neteller is one of the ONLY methods that have stood the test of time, (there are a few more but not with the marketshare Neteller has) but there are quite a few countries that Neteller can NOT be used, and if you think penetrating the countries they do not service, ask yourself why they never re-entered those countries or entered the ones they do not service.

No simple app could possibly do what you propose and without real financial backing, (real backing would not simply be a few million) anything else would never be more than small time and would certainly fail fairly quickly or be completely destroyed by government intervention from any one of a long list of countries.

I am not saying that this will not happen one day, but I honestly still believe that Neteller is poised to be one of the best shots. (being in the US I really miss how convenient it was to use)

In my opinion no digital currency that has been released so far could possibly fulfill the needs of a stable trusted payment method that the industry needs, certainly not one that would be accepted by the various governments of all the countries.

It will have to be transparent and will have to be fairly open and accepted by the banking industry currently in place around the world, since the world will not just switch to a new monetary system or method of paying for things without a lot of resistance, time and heartache.

Rick
Universal4

Side note: Although the discussion of payment methods and how they affect the industry are certainly on-topic, I do draw attention to the fact that most methods of shilling here at the GPWA are both frowned upon and often removed by moderation. I trust that will not be the case in this instance, since this is an important discussion. For anyone that doesn't know what a shill is, you may find an explanation here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

[Makkafon]

Thanks for your replies!

You are quite well on to the idea Gooner and you did pinpoint some of the biggest hurdles indeed. Although we think we have quite efficient ideas on how to ease integration. This would be especially easy with checkout-cart merchants. And we have figured out solutions that allows customers to use our money to pay on certain sites even if not implemented by the sites, which would of course be something done gradually and not over night. That part of the solution is close to what Neteller is doing indeed, although it is just meant to be temporary.
I can't quit go into our profit-model but it involves long term plans that does not involve fees.

The aim is however very different from what Neteller is doing. Because the aim is P2P transactions without the middle man. Straight from the wallet to the merchant without any hurdles or fees. I personally think this is the only way for the currency of tomorrow. The middle man is the reason why transactions today are slow and expensive. And they do not really offer any value.

I also fully agree with you on the " no digital currency that has been released so far could possibly fulfill the needs of a stable trusted payment method that the industry needs, certainly not one that would be accepted by the various governments of all the countries."
This is certainly case, I think the revolution in the Bitcoin is not the coin itself (and certainly not in any of the other scam-like altcoins). But in the technology behind it.

And while we have little doubt that the "product" is superior and fit to overtake the current monetary systems, we fully agree on the "resistance, time and heartache." part. Actually many countries are quite positive to this sort of currency though, including homeland security i.e. Because of the verifiable nature of crypto-transactions compared to fiat-transactions. We also share your view on the transparency part.

My intention was indeed never to hide my intentions or to promote a company. As we're currently developing this technology I was just looking to share the idea and get some feedback, since the gambling industry will be one of our first targets as we believe it will be very beneficial to both the industry and the players. I'd love to hear your thoughts at a latter stage when we can fully disclose the details!
I'm very thankful for the fantastic feedback.

Best regards,
Jens

[universal4]

The problem with P2P financial transactions, without the middleman, as you propose, who is it that is doing the KYC verifications?

Any financial institutions that think they will be an acceptable form of moving money and refuse to follow standard anti money laundering rules and regulations that all the other financial institutions must follow will most certainly have a target placed on them in a fairly large list of countries, and those financial institutions that must follow those procedures will likely lobby heavy against the adoption of you whiz-bang service if they think that it has the potential of eating into their marketshare at all.

And there has been very little transparency in what was posted so far, it looks more like hype about a super secret product.

And Homeland Security is against any financial transactions through the use of any device or service that does not follow KYC rules and regulations.

Rick
Universal4

[Makkafon]

Quite right sir! Well there is the initial issuer of the currency(us) who would have strict KYC verification when issuing the currency.
Also KYC would be needed to trade it back into fiat, whether trough us our exchanges, like for any electronic money. There is no way around this, and we are positive towards KYC so we don't really see a need to.
There would be transparency regarding the technology as well as regarding the value of the coin. The coins produced would be obvious in the block-chain. For transparency of the value behind it, we are still working out the exact way to best go about this. But we're thinking about using independent third party non-profit parties to oversee this.

Cheers!

[LiveCasinoPartners]

........
A fairly long list of payment methods have come and gone since then, and none of them ever had the penetration that Neteller had achieved. In fact Neteller is one of the ONLY methods that have stood the test of time, (there are a few more but not with the marketshare Neteller has) but there are quite a few countries that Neteller can NOT be used, and if you think penetrating the countries they do not service, ask yourself why they never re-entered those countries or entered the ones they do not service.

Yes, it's impressive what Neteller and Skril have managed to achieve. I would argue that Crypto-currencies in general (especially bitcoin) could possible make ewallets a thing of the past. Once the volatility of bitcoin reduces you will see a lot of operators migrate to crypto currency sites. One that I like is allcoincasino.com They have nothing to do with us, but I thought the concept of not having a cashier is a game changer in how exchanging funds could be at a brand. Very cool. It's pretty easy for those who have a bit coin wallet.