Panda and Penguin Recovery Experience

[alexcruncha]

I started this post because I was recently hit by now what we know was the Panda update #25 (which as pointed out will be the last Panda update to be manually rolled out, Matt Cutts said Panda will now be embedded into the main algorithm and run on autopilot).
I was hit by the original Panda update in Nov 2011 and lost half of my traffic and I slowly slowly recovered (many months) but I didnt take any measures to fix my site, and back then was a little inexperienced.
After getting my traffic back from the original Panda attack I was hit by Penguin in April 2012 and it was a game changer but this time I worked out how to fix my site and I was back to pre-Penguin traffic within 1 - 2 months (much faster than last time). Now I am going to use an approach I didnt do after to first Panda... I am going to look at what Panda is, analyze my entire site and make as many changes as I can in an effort to sort things out.

For the benefit of ppl that havent got much experience of how to recover here is what I know (I am not claiming to be an expert but want to share this with others and open for discussion):

Panda (on page factors)
Its focus is on the quality of content or everything considered to be on-page; Panda appears to penalises websites that have the following traits:
* Has pages that are thin on content
* Has too many ads / external links
* Has poor quality or outdated content or is a content farm
* Does not contain T's & C's
It is to be noted that the Panda penalty is sitewide so a number of poor pages can bring the whole site down in search (more hardcore than Penguin IMO)
Steps to recover as laid out by others (not tested by me)
* Fill out important pages that are lacking content with high quality content
* If pages have a high ad to content ratio fix it to be much more content heavy
* Make sure TOS and Privacy Policy pages can be found by Google
* noindex or remove pages that are thin on content, have little value and you dont want to fix
* tag pages should be set to noindex and follow
I will be implementing some of these changes to my site and see how it goes... I have to say when I was first hit by Panda I did not do this and recovered naturally, and no subsequent Panda updates hurt... only this recent one.

Penguin (off page factors)
Amoung other things Penguin is a measure of the quality of the links pointing to your site (which can be out of our hands); a lot of SEO's researched this and it appears that the major theme for a penalty was one reason:
* Many links pointing to pages that used the same anchor text, more specifically with money terms.
Based on my experience the penalty is page specific (but this was not confirmed by Google)... so only pages where I had a substantial number of incoming links containing the same anchor text appeared to be affected. Unfortunately this meant my homepage no longer ranks no.1 for my brand name... it is outranked by crappy sites for a search on my brand name.
Steps to recover (most steps tested by me):
* Create fresh pages that contain the keywords your penalised pages used to rank for and then internally link those penalised pages to the fresh pages
* Clean up links
* Use Google disavow tool (but be very very careful with this)
* It is arguable that you could counter this by building a huge number of backlinks to affected pages with varied anchor text but I would say this would be a risky strategy as it may not work after a lot of effort
I did the first step days/weeks after the original Penguin update and I had new pages with no direct external links ranking on page 1 of Google in 30 minutes in a couple of cases! ...pure luck, maybe. I did notice though this wasnt a silver bullet, didnt work in all cases and I lost some keyword rankings for good.

Anyway, I am in the process of making changes to clean up my on page factors that have affected my site following the Panda #25 update and I wil report back to let everyone know if I successfully get my traffic back.

Would be good to hear from others if they agree/disagree with my experience and research above. Let me know.

[edgarf76]

that is awesome! I see the terms and conditions, I have affiliate sites so there are no terms and conditions. Do you see many affiliate sites that have terms and conditions?

[-Shay-]

Again, the key to Panda is interesting, and TRULY UNIQUE content as opposed to re-writing reviews and pages based on what other people have already said. Most affiliates/affiliate sites do not contain "truly unique" content.

I can't say it any better, so here's a link that discusses most people's "white hat strategy".

[Roulette Zeitung]

Hello,

Again, the key to Panda is interesting, and TRULY UNIQUE content as opposed to re-writing reviews and pages based on what other people have already said. Most affiliates/affiliate sites do not contain "truly unique" content.

that is also the reason why my sympathy is limited. To me it does not matter if I'm not getting friends with my opinion.

For years, many webmasters have bought links or filled the sites with garbage only for SEO. The main thing: clicks. Always at the top not the sites with good content but with the most expensive tricks.

Now the rainbows dissolve.

Whoever comes too late is punished by life.

Leopold

[Christiaan]

* tag pages should be set to noindex and follow

Are you sure about this? I have tags and categories on my websites. They are not set to no-index.

Who has more information?

[-Shay-]

Are you sure about this? I have tags and categories on my websites. They are not set to no-index.

Who has more information?

The information posted is what "they" say. Whether "they" have credibility, insight, accuracy, etc. is not known, really.

Also, I don't think the the cookie cutter information is to be used by every site in all cases. Just my two cents worth.

Cheers

[-Shay-]

I reread my above post this morning and feel like I sound too harsh (unintentionally) in that post. Or maybe it is that I wasn't offering enough clarity in what I am saying. Either way, an explanation or rant is following:

Not just in "this business" but specifically in "this business" - people do stuff and do not really understand WHY they are doing what they do. Websites get search traffic based on what they say, how they say it, and how they are structured (amongst other things). If your site uses both tags and categories, but receives traffic because of something that is tag based or category based, I am remiss if I suggest you "noindex" one or the other without first determining whether you receive traffic based on tag/categories.

THERE IS NO ONE COOKIE CUTTER ANSWER ON HOW TO DO/FIX THINGS.

The stuff Alex posted - all "out of context" ideas on things one can do to fix their traffic problems. I say "out of context" because there's no discussion on when some/any/all of those "fixes" are appropriate. They are all things that "can" be done, but they're not all things that "should" be done in "all" circumstances (yes, I know I'm "quote happy" at the moment).

The fact that they are "out of context" ideas is not Alex's fault, however. He's posting ideas on what you can do to fix your traffic issues. His list is not a check list of "things you should do to fix your site" though. There is no single list that can be applied generically - so for newbies looking for one, quit looking as it doesn't exist. For old salts looking for yet another short-cut - nope, that's not it.

You want Panda/Penguin recovery story based on experience - here's one.

My site got hit by both at one point in time or another. When I quit buying links and when I started writing truly unique content, these things quit hurting me and began helping because they both got rid of the crap cluttering the web. Not only did I recover, but I'm ranked higher than ever.

What did I do? I quit looking at my competitor's websites. Your reviews, my reviews, your general pages, my general pages - they're not an "open source" project. I don't use your reviews or your review structure and then expand on it. That is not a way to say something unique. I don't spin my content. Nor do I spin yours. Again, doing so is NOT a way to say something truly unique. If I do any of those, I'm simply spamming the internet. If you do any of that - whether it is taking someone's review, rewording it and adding 600 words - that's not unique. If you are basing your review structure on how I tend to structure my reviews - again you're just spamming the web and not taking a unique approach.

Don't try to improve my "widget", develop your own. Come up with your own unique approach, voice, and content. Don't rely on what "Joe" or "Jenny" are saying to figure out wtf you're going to do on your own site. Again, my sites, your sites, "Joe" and "Jenny's" sites are not open source. They're meant to be a final end product, not something intended for you to read, copy, spin, and improve upon. By you, I mean you and your team of writers in general.

Webmasters in this business are often like vendors trying to make a quick buck with a fad product. One comes to market with a somewhat unique item to sell and they do quite well. Another vendor sees their success and tries to take their own path to get "something like it" and make some money of their own. More often than not, that "other" vendor will come over and make little snide remarks about how "nice it must be" to roll in the dough or they might ask questions about how you came into that product. They're not asking out of concern for you. They're asking because they're trying to figure out how they are going to shoot the same angle.

Then, said vendor debuts his "similar" product and does so in a half-assed fashion. He spams the market with his knockoff that he knows little to nothing about - aside from it makes me bank. Little product knowledge, a lot of my front talk, but nothing "deep" and definitely nothing of his own. He waters down my market a little bit in the short-term, but long term - I remain successful and he moves on to the next big thing. Instead, if you're copying my style, why not come out and ask me directly? Why not say "I want in, can you help? How much?" Why not show me the money and I'll show you EXACTLY how to be successful spitting my game? That way, you make bank - I'm given my due and we're working together instead of against one another.

How does this apply to our industry? A webmaster sees a site they think is killing it. They ask their "in house" writer to do up some reviews and content straight tell their writer - build me some content "exactly like this site" but be sure to be unique. What are they really asking their writer to do? They're asking them to steal another man's widget and improve on it. These people should not be in the business. If you have nothing unique to say, don't say it at all (without citing the original source).

The fault does not stop at the webmaster level though. Some writers (all of them SHOULD know better but not all do) think that visiting affiliate sites to see how other sites word things. Then, they copy that style and reword so it appears unique (passes copyscape). Again - not original work, and definitely not unique. Thinking any differently is fooling yourself.

With the above - ironically, the OP calls what he has done "his research". But, it is nothing more than copying what others have tried without experience of his own to reflect upon (which he somewhat states in his post).

Let me cliff note you with my research - If you've been Panda'd - your content is either not unique or it does not say enough or it does not reflect a well-spoken voice using proper Grammar, focus, or spelling. Fix your $hit content, say something real and unique and Panda will be lifted. I have been Panda'd, fixed my $hit content, and am ranking quite well.

If you've been Penguin'd - you're most likely spamming the web in some capacity - spinning/rewriting crap content pointing links at your main sites in a direct/indirect fashion. Quit spamming the web, delete your $hit links, and Penguin will be lifted. I have removed $hit links, I have quit buying links - no more penguin.

Anyone wanting me to create a unique "widget" for you, wanting me to look at your "widget" to give you an action plan on how to fix your mess - ask me as opposed to copying my style without knowing why/how.

/rant

[alexcruncha]

that is awesome! I see the terms and conditions, I have affiliate sites so there are no terms and conditions. Do you see many affiliate sites that have terms and conditions?

This is just one of many on-page factors that I have read here and there that could indicate the quality of a site. If you check it out most serious websites have TOS/privacy/disclaimer pages... including most of the big affiliates I have checked. If you also check a load of low quality websites, a high percentage dont bother too much with these kind of pages so its definitely something that could be easily used by an algorithm to determine a websites quality. My personal feel is that its probably not the biggest thing to worry about but worth noting nonetheless.

Are you sure about this? I have tags and categories on my websites. They are not set to no-index.

Who has more information?

As others have posted this may not fit every situation (so dont rush to do this unless you understand why) but the concept for me is simple. Generally tag pages are not what visitors are searching for... they are usually interested in finding posts with informative content they are looking for. So in this case tag pages shouldnt be ranking in the SERPS although the links should be followed by the search engines to boost the pages they link to. I personally have some tag pages outranking detailed articles on my site for targeted keywords. Those tag pages contain little value to the visitor in comparison to the target article and so my tag pages are essentially low quality pages. The thing is with tag pages on my site is that a lot of internal pages link to them and that pushes them up in the SERPs vs other content on my site... so the solution is to noindex + follow them. It also helps to avoid duplicate content problems that may be present on tag pages (though duplicate content on tag pages is not a problem for my site). In the case that you dont have duplicate content on tag pages and you actually want visitors to land on your tag pages from search because those tag pages are high quality then I would not noindex+follow tag pages.

The information posted is what "they" say. Whether "they" have credibility, insight, accuracy, etc. is not known, really.

Also, I don't think the the cookie cutter information is to be used by every site in all cases. Just my two cents worth.

Cheers

Shay, I have to agree with your rant lol... this is not a checklist for everyone to go out and do, definitely not - some of it could be dangerous. I simply wanted to share my experience and ideas with the community and get some opinions of people that have knowledge/experience that I dont. I got Penguin'd because I was doing excessive article marketing, which in the short term helped me ranks for decent money terms and made me money in the short term, so I deserved what I got I guess. However, I got Panda'd twice now when I wrote 90% of the content on my site and it is and has always been well-written/informative/unique and I have never rewritten anyone else's work... so in my case I know it has to be down to more than poor content such as pages thin on content, perhaps with too many ads, which do exist on my site or maybe some other reasons that I mentioned from my Panda research.


For those of you interested some of the sources I used to do my research are here:
http://www.shoutmeloud.com/how-to-re...da-effect.html
http://www.seomoz.org/q/panda-recove...e-google-aware
http://searchengineland.com/google-p...ecovery-149491
http://bloggingexperiment.com/archiv...lity-score.php
..there were also a load of other blogs and forums I visited to get a good general idea about Panda and how to recover but I didnt record them, sorry

[-Shay-]

As others have posted this may not fit every situation (so dont rush to do this unless you understand why) but the concept for me is simple. Generally tag pages are not what visitors are searching for... they are usually interested in finding posts with informative content they are looking for. So in this case tag pages shouldnt be ranking in the SERPS although the links should be followed by the search engines to boost the pages they link to. I personally have some tag pages outranking detailed articles on my site for targeted keywords. Those tag pages contain little value to the visitor in comparison to the target article and so my tag pages are essentially low quality pages. The thing is with tag pages on my site is that a lot of internal pages link to them and that pushes them up in the SERPs vs other content on my site... so the solution is to noindex + follow them. It also helps to avoid duplicate content problems that may be present on tag pages (though duplicate content on tag pages is not a problem for my site). In the case that you dont have duplicate content on tag pages and you actually want visitors to land on your tag pages from search because those tag pages are high quality then I would not noindex+follow tag pages.

Regarding your tag pages - you state that they provide little value to the visitor in comparison to the target article, yet you also state you link frequently to them. For me, that begs the question - why link to them at all then?

I'd think that linking to a page that is of little value, you're devaluing the "meaning" of your link.

Though really, if I give it a bit of further thought, are your tag pages truly low value? If you're using tags as a way to organize your news/promo posts, then someone who wants to find details of what a specific site offered or currently offers would find the tag page of interest because it is a central hub for this type of information. Though, if I understand that, I also probably understand why the tag page is/should probably be "noindex". Personally, I do not use "noindex" on any part of my sites, as I'm not one to turn away opportunity for traffic from Google, even if they decide to rank the wrong page. I'd sooner find ways to funnel visitors from the wrong page to the right page than I would asking for a "noindex" - food for thought, perhaps.

Best of luck to ya.

[alexcruncha]

Thanks for your reply Shay, its great to get your opinion and I think you have good points.. I probably should not be allowing my tags (which link to tag pages) to appear in my posts+pages... that would probably solve the problem. But then again in that case my tag pages would not be spidered much and would lose their value, and therefore would not pass link juice through my site or rank well if left to be indexed. Its six of one and half a dozen of another. All I know from what I have read (which is opinion of others) is that it is not ideal to have pages thin on content or of low value to appear in SERPs, especially in my case as they compete with better pages on the same domain.

The thing I want to understand from doing this is if my tag pages that rank better than posts/pages were suddenly not indexed, would my targeted posts/pages rise up in the search since they are not competing with another similar keyword page in the SERPs on the same domain. This is something I dont know and I want to do a test to find out... once I know I will report my findings for the benefit of others.

[casinorecommender]

Google penalize people for displaying lots of advertisement but itself publishes too many advertisements inside the content. This is not fair! I shut my mouth in case Google reads this post and penalizes me also !