kindred affiliates

I promote them too. I didn't accept the new terms and got good contact with the AM. For what it's worth. T&c's are that one-sided that they're absolutely useless for affiliates.

For example, in Belgium, I do not have too much choice. Dropped already Betway and reduced Gaming 1 exposure to the minimum. I'm now left with Ladbrokes, Bwin, LivePartners, Kindred and two locals who have not too much with affiliate marketing (who have forced retro-actively crappy terms already too).

If I had to pull every program that's rogue or dodgy somewhere on earth, I have literally nothing left to promote there.

My experience from working with the kindred group , dont waste you time on them .
I just lost over 1000 players and over 10 years of hard work .

they treating to delete my account and i think this is just the beginning , the kindred group is big now and can do whatever they want , no affiliate manager had yet answer my emails for 3 months now .

something for askgamblers maybe ???

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Originally Posted by Triple7

I promote them too. I didn't accept the new terms and got good contact with the AM. For what it's worth. T&c's are that one-sided that they're absolutely useless for affiliates.

For example, in Belgium, I do not have too much choice. Dropped already Betway and reduced Gaming 1 exposure to the minimum. I'm now left with Ladbrokes, Bwin, LivePartners, Kindred and two locals who have not too much with affiliate marketing (who have forced retro-actively crappy terms already too).

If I had to pull every program that's rogue or dodgy somewhere on earth, I have literally nothing left to promote there.

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I would choose the 'dark-side' if i were you. I feel your pain, because i have a strong feeling this playfield is going to be the same for NL affiliates too after the regulation.

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Originally Posted by Triple7

If I had to pull every program that's rogue or dodgy somewhere on earth, I have literally nothing left to promote there.

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That's not entirely true, is it?

As I understand, you are only promoting the brands that have an A+ licence by Belgium Gambling Commission, which is only possible when you have a physical casino in Belgium, and there are exactly 10 of those. You are choosing to ignore all other brands even if they're great, like Bitstarz. And that's a matter of choice.

There are lots of casinos that accept Belgian players.

I see 73 casinos here:
https://www.slotsup.com/online-casinos/belgium-be
This list has 63 casinos:
https://www.aboutslots.com/countries/belgium
This one has 170:
https://www.gamingzion.com/belgium/casino/casino-sites/

Certainly some of these can be worked with.

I'm not telling you how to run your business. I'm just saying it's your own choice to reduce yourself to 10 brands since you keep repeating the "I'd literally have no one to work with" argument. Yes, if you require the online casino to be tied to a physical casino in Belgium, because only 9 physical casinos are allowed in Belgium at one time.

It's your choice to limit yourself to these.

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Originally Posted by DanHorvat

That's not entirely true, is it?

As I understand, you are only promoting the brands that have an A+ licence by Belgium Gambling Commission, which is only possible when you have a physical casino in Belgium, and there are exactly 10 of those. You are choosing to ignore all other brands even if they're great, like Bitstarz. And that's a matter of choice.

There are lots of casinos that accept Belgian players.

I see 73 casinos here:
https://www.slotsup.com/online-casinos/belgium-be
This list has 63 casinos:
https://www.aboutslots.com/countries/belgium
This one has 170:
https://www.gamingzion.com/belgium/casino/casino-sites/

Certainly some of these can be worked with.

I'm not telling you how to run your business. I'm just saying it's your own choice to reduce yourself to 10 brands since you keep repeating the "I'd literally have no one to work with" argument. Yes, if you require the online casino to be tied to a physical casino in Belgium, because only 9 physical casinos are allowed in Belgium at one time.

It's your choice to limit yourself to these.

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I do not agree with you here.

There are 10 A+ licenses of which Pokerstars and Circus share a license, which means Pokerstars offers just poker and Circus everything except poker. That also means it makes no sense to promote Pokerstars on a website with casino traffic. Sidenote: Pokerstars is a rogue affiliate program too.

Star Casino has an A+ license, but they do not have an affiliate program. That leaves just 8. if changing and forcing terms retro-actively is rogue, we have LivePartners (rogue), Kindred (rogue), Napoleon (recently they launched their program, a brand is saturated), Bwin (rogue), Gaming1 (rogue), Betway (triple rogue), Ladbrokes (rogue) and Golden Palace (rogue).

Bitstarz is simply illegal in Belgium as their Curacao license is valid just in Curacao. A lot of the 73 casinos listed at the first link don't even take Belgian traffic. Casumo for example, they're having Belgium IP's geo-blocked. Others, like Mucho Vegas, are not having a license in Belgium and are even blacklisted. Besides that, almost all slots are blocked, as Netent & co do not offer their games to Belgian IP's coming from a non-licensed website.

Difference between the domains you mention and mine is that those are .com domains in English, mine a .be in Flemish/Dutch, which can even be confiscated and for those websites Belgium is a very small side-business.

I think none of the .be affiliates is going to flush loaded player bases at legal brands just to promote some Curacao casinos with C-class games.

Above is just to explain that it's not that simple as "just drop some brands and replace them by unlicensed operators:" and not to disturb this topic.

So you insist Kindred is white while Bitstarz is black. In my book, it's the other way around.

Anyway, this is a question of whether an affiliate who already has 1000 players and spent 10 years on promoting a brand, and suspects at one point his account will be closed because the brand went rogue, should
a) keep building the player base to squeeze out some more money
b) send players to other brands to reduce exposure to player theft

They use quotas and psychology to push you towards a).

Am I lying?

Yes, they push you to a) and rational thing is to do the a). By far IMO. Because I do not think even with tracking working and other things like used to be you can get nowadays as many players as in the past for the same cost, with work we are used to do and so on.

The strategy for us is to defend the playerbase and for affiliate programs to steal it.

That said I am giving Kindred more now because in some countries they are in position where bet365 used to be. From the big Euro brands that are open to be they are still the best.

The bottom line really is that there are no better alternatives than Kindred on other markets, if we talk about 10+ yrs established places who have marketing teams out of affiliate and where main product is sportsbook and they have decent casino and poker. There is nobody decent in Germany, Italy, Spain, UK, Scandinavia.

We are destined to push the bookies to the bitter end and they have full control. I did not want to write it like this because for 95% Unibet affiliate managers actually read this thread. But I was called so be it.

There is only one thing that can change the direction. It is a very clear court decision that this is not allowed + really hefty fine (but even that will not come from me, because with lawyers I go after secret one time earn-outs at bookies who stole). Then all bookies would stand at the same line. Because now stealing is not just a financial incentive for them. The worse thing is that if all steal, the ones who do not have less money left for promotion, so they are in disadvantage.

I was not defending the affiliate program Kindred. What they're doing with retro-active quota is simply rogue, there's no other word for it. I legal terms they can, because their lawyers made the terms and there's stated that basically they can do what they feel like.

They have the player base and thus the control. It's either b) and lose your player base or a) and be tolerated a bit more. I was just saying why sometimes the choice is A.

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Originally Posted by Sherlock

Yes, they push you to a) and rational thing is to do the a). By far IMO.

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I wouldn't jump to that conclusion until I see the math, and the math would be individual for every affiliate and every two programs you compare.

If you could know some player is a whale and could choose where to send him to, I don't see the point in sending him to a rogue brand.

That is true. The bigger playerbase you have, the more likely you will not dump them.
But even for small affiliate nowadays let's say in Scandinavia: there is no alternative. Betsson? Bwin? Pinnacle?
In further you go to the east of Europe, there is one: 1xbet. Also very questionable for other reasons.
In South of Europe even the clandestines like 1xbet do not take traffic.

In fairly deregulated South America on the other hand there is Bettingpartners now, stronger each month. So rogue brands lose that market. But elsewhere the situation now is that if an affiliate who promotes them for 10 years and drops Unibet, then he may never make ONE MONTH Unibet revenue with the other **** brands ever.

Do not forget the market is penetrated. Most gamblers have 1+ accounts. I talked to a random UK guy, who was proud to have accounts at 7 bookies. Even if you force them to sign-up at newamazingbet12345.com at conversion rate that is 95% worse than 5 years ago, they will just get the bonus, maybe lose the initial deposit, but they will redeposit at their old bookies [and newamazingbet12345affiliates.com will probably not work either and/or they will soon steal]. The fact is that Unibet does have a top 10% product for sure. I tested them few months ago. The site is not buggy, they have streams, their CS is actually quite well informed, their risk management is very strict = good for affiliates and so on.

It is really stupid to talk about this in public and show our remaining cards to affiliates. I thought we are wiser. We are not.

This game in Europe is SFYL or gl with lawyers.

I had being as a unibet affiliate since 2007. I was first stupid with cpa model, getting 5 players per day??!!! depositing but things changed and then almost in Finland had account with unibet. Then I sold my website, and now? They made a account closure? With over 350 players active.
:(

Im sad to them. We had vip meetings icehockey vip tickets etc. Dont know what to say about them-.