checks not an option for payment utterly rediculous!

[bb1web]

to any and all casino owners and aff managers.

Please don't insult our intelligence by stating that payment via check is not an option!

Unless and until all checks written outside the states are no longer cashed by US banks ... IT IS ENTIRELY an option.

Its simply a matter of setting up an account that doesn't have any gambling related names in it.

Pretty simple and undeniable.

So please don't attempt to go this route!

Remember the world is watching you. how you treat US affiliates today is how the rest of the world can be expected to be treated tomorrow ... especially if they suddenly find themselves in the same boat which is a very real possiblity for many.

And to affs: I strongly suggest you keep an eye on the current status of how your US counterparts are treated and choose your partners accordingly.

I've always said this; what can be done to one can be done to another .. and likely will. its just a matter of time.

Seek out and actively remove those aff programs proving to use any excuse to avoid paying.
__________________

[bb1web]

Hi again all,

furthermore checks must be an option for payment to players.

It is asking too much for them to go around signing up at whatever ewallet is the flavor of the month as a solution.

they will simply eat their losses and stop playing online.

as long as any company is paying anybody from out of state to in state parties ... it remains a viable option.

its simply a matter of setting up an account with no gambling related names in the issuer.

[pgaming]

Hey bb1 nice to see ya here!!! If the casino and programs travel down this path I say rogue them all.

Taking sometime off will be back in about two weeks need to clear my head.

Greek39

[Jon-Jon]

We are making a plan by funding an account in the UK and sending checks manually via that account - it will take a bit longer but not much - a few days at most...

We are continuing with Wire and ACH presently...

If you have not yet updated your payment method please logon to either www.g3partner.com or www.playshareaffiliates.com , or send and email to Cherylann@playshare.com

[RGDanielle13]

Hi Everyone,

Currently Revenue Giant's is offering EWalletXpress, Cashier Player, and Direct Bank Wire Transfers for our US Affiliates...in the near near future we will be working on other ways that we can accomodate our US Affiliates.

If anyone has any questions or concerns please feel free to drop me an email at Danielle@revenuegiants.com or via MSN: rg_danielle@hotmail.com I would be happy to hear from any of you! This is a rough time for everyone, but I feel very confident we will all get through this,

Very Best,
Danielle

[MichaelCorfman]

Its simply a matter of setting up an account that doesn't have any gambling related names in it.

Steve, first and foremost I want to welcome you as a newly readmitted private member and say it is really nice to see you posting here.

I agree with most of what you say, but the payment situation is actually substantially more complicated that it would appear on the surface, and, unfortunately, what we see today is not the end of the turmoil. First, not having a gambling related name will not end up making that much of a difference. If an account is set up in the US, and there is an attempt to obscure the payor, then that is money laundering under federal statutes, and is a criminal offense. If the account is maintained in the US, then the funds in the account are subject to seizure. This is what is happening to Neteller right now. They have several hundred million dollars in accounts in the US that they cannot pay out to their account holders because of government actions.

Now, for the really scary stuff. There is a company, Accuity Solutions www.accuitysolutions.com, that provides information to banks in the United States about payors and payees. They are actively working on providing information to banks about who the banks should be concerned about doing business with in light of the passage of UIGEA. I know - they called me to help a couple months ago because of our extensive knowledge of the industry. You can imagine my reaction to that.

Michael

[bb1web]

thanks for the update Michael.


I can only base my experience on how I'm getting paid via cashouts from for instance, a sportsbook I have used for years.

In fact, the only option to get paid right now is by check. So somehow, they are getting around the problem.

most casinos are located outside the US jurisdiction. They are never going to make the DOJ happy in its eyes. regardless of what they do.

an account set up by say ... joe's red wagons ... ...well I just don't see how it can be tracked back to an online casino if the money deposited into that account is done properly.

of course, I'm very naive is such workings. but something must be working in order for me to get paid via check from the sportsbook.

make sense?

ps.

thanks for the welcome back




ps.

this may require depositing the money into joes red wagons in a cash approach. however there are many banks (swiss comes to mind, also I believe some in the bahamas, where its actually breaking the law to enquire who owns the account) to find out how the money was put into the account, etc.

while I agree this opens a whole new avenue for questions as to where the money came from .. it certainly does away with any ties to OG.

i think its more a matter of how far the casino is willing to go to ensure they can send checks.

*again, I'm very naive in this area, but just am basing my opinions on what I have seen accomplished in these times when so many say it isn't possible.

[MichaelCorfman]

Let's just suppose you wanted to figure out what accounts were used to pay out from online gaming sites, and you had an extensive database of most financial transactions. Let's see ... what would you do if you wanted to track those that replaced Neteller.

How about looking at the set of accounts that received money from Neteller prior to its withdrawal from the US marketplace. Then let's ask the question what accounts are they now receiving money from. And across all of those accounts, let's do a correlation analysis of who is new in any significant way. May I have the answer please ... out comes a list of probable online gaming site payment accounts. Piece of cake.

What I'm talking about is not a big issue today, but it is likely to be an issue tomorrow. What is true is that an organization that paid by Neteller yesterday and then switches to checks is exposing a lot more information about who they are and what they are doing to the banking system, and some might be struggling with that issue. Of course, in my opinion, there is a good chance they actually won't be revealing any additional information, since it would not suprise me if Neteller cooperation with the US authorities includes providing extensive information about Neteller account holders and transactions.

And did I mention that we might all be lumped together as possible terrorists that could be involved in (gasp) money laundering. Talk about using the patriot act to trample on civil liberties. Unfortunately, I think there is some liklihood that totally rediculous rationales like that might really be used by some warped bureaucrats who don't quite grasp that such actions destroy "the land of the free" they think they are trying to preserve. God save us from ourselves.

Michael

[Dominique]

Excellent post, Michael!!!!!!

[bb1web]

quote:

I think there is some liklihood that totally rediculous rationales like that might really be used by some warped bureaucrats who don't quite grasp that such actions destroy "the land of the free" they think they are trying to preserve. God save us from ourselves.

unquote:

excellent point sir.

and all too likely to happen.

Still there must be a viable solution for paying. Moreso I am concerned about players than ourselves.

those that are still playing ... need some kind of confidence in the system. That falls to checks.

It is not IMHO a likely scenario that the players are going to keep jumping from whatever ewallet is currently considered to be the solution.

In fact; I won't recommmend any ewallet on my sites at this time. The last thing I want is for my readers to lose faith in my judgement because I list whatever may seem to be the answer at the moment. I'd rather lose out on the commissions and have them appreciate my integrity than send these people running from one ewallet to another.

More frightening is that with each ewallet they join, they stand to lose or have money tied up in that place.

Prepaid credit cards are said to work. I also have from some reliable sources there are going to be some other very respected means of depositing to come out very soon.

All well and good, but it still leaves one very big problem. If you can't pay winners, the deposits are going to wither and dry up.

There MUST be a way to get winnings to players. Currently the most confident way of achieving that in the eyes of the players is by check; however long it may take for it to arrive in their mailboxes.

These checks are cashable as long as they are written on accounts not related to gambling sources. This may require casinos to have to create accounts on a weekly basis, but its still IMHO the only way to continue to portray confidence to players.

I very much welcome any reasonable solutions to the above from any source.

But telling players to go from ... lets see, first was recommended paysparks, then came click2pay ... now there are a number of newbies to spring up all of which are not proven.

all of which require private banking information to be submitted, all of which (or most anyway) require a deposit from someone's bank before you can withdraw ... its just not gonna float with players.

and needless to say, what works for the player will work for affs.

Please understand I'm not trying to argue with anybody, nor be defiant. I'm simply (as always) seeing things from a player's pov.

right now, it ain't pretty any way you put it.

*I even had one sponsor tell me they'd put my earnings into a casino account. How stupid is that? is that what they're telling players? Hey, if you want to cash out you can't: but we'll put your cashout back into your casino account. How thoughtful of them.

players are quickly losing confidence; that is: those who are even still playing.

Something needs to be done and quickly to sustain confidence in OG or its going to spill far beyond just the US situation.

If I were outside the states after reading what has happened with NETeller's US customers, I'd have pulled all my funds out of there immediately. You can either trust a bank to have your money when you want it: or you can't. NETeller has proven they cannot be trusted. Sadly, they were by far the most trusted of the lot.

Which brings me back to why checks are so important.

OG will never be accpeted in the eyes of the DOJ. not offshore anyhow because they can't get their fingers in the pie. So why worry or bother trying to satisfy them?

I can't argue that checks may leave an easy trail to follow. But if I were a casino outside the jurisdiction, I'd worry a heck of a lot more about keeping confidence in my customers minds than trying to satisfy an entity which will never be satisfiable.

edited to add:

I cannot say of the legal situation concerning money laundering. However it does make sense to me that if you recieve a check, it cannot be money laundering if the same / similar amount was not paid into a place where the money came from. That may not be right, but I don't see how it can be seen as money laundering if no money went in, but money was paid out.

at some point, doesn't the amount going in, have to be close to what you got paid?

for instance, I get checks from out of the states for other aff industries. while I could prove where and what for that money came, isn't it also possible that for instance ... i won a contest and was thus paid for that? in which case I'd not be able to prove why the money came in, ... other than to say I had entered a contest and won.

would that then be considered money laundering?

[bb1web]

quote:

not having a gambling related name will not end up making that much of a difference. If an account is set up in the US, and there is an attempt to obscure the payor, then that is money laundering under federal statutes

unquote:


*for some reason I can't find the quote button lol


anyhow, I'm curious, aren't most programs going to have checks written from banks outside the states anyway?

just curious.

[CityGuard]

*for some reason I can't find the quote button lol

It should be on the bottom right-hand side of each post, immediately to the left of the "Quick Reply" icon. Just overlooking it or is there a technical issue where it is not showing up? (If that's the case, I'll look into it. Would be helpful to get a screenshot of what you're seeing emailed to manager@gpwa.org.)

[MichaelCorfman]

... I am concerned about players than ourselves.

It is not IMHO a likely scenario that the players are going to keep jumping from whatever ewallet is currently considered to be the solution.

More frightening is that with each ewallet they join, they stand to lose or have money tied up in that place.

All well and good, but it still leaves one very big problem. If you can't pay winners, the deposits are going to wither and dry up.
I very much welcome any reasonable solutions to the above from any source.

Please understand I'm not trying to argue with anybody, nor be defiant. I'm simply (as always) seeing things from a player's pov.

right now, it ain't pretty any way you put it.

players are quickly losing confidence; that is: those who are even still playing.

BB1:

I think you are absolutely correct. Furthermore, I believe those initiating these actions know exactly how damaging they are on this front, and that is why the actions are being taken. With the calculated intent of introducing fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the minds of players.

Michael

[mojo]

It should be on the bottom right-hand side of each post, immediately to the left of the "Quick Reply" icon. Just overlooking it or is there a technical issue where it is not showing up? (If that's the case, I'll look into it. Would be helpful to get a screenshot of what you're seeing emailed to manager@gpwa.org.)

Hi guys, not to get off track but features must be set in your profile (you can go in through your private message link) to enable smilies and quotes etc. At least that worked for me. Before I did that I had very few features.

Mojo

[igami]

And did I mention that we might all be lumped together as possible terrorists that could be involved in (gasp) money laundering. Talk about using the patriot act to trample on civil liberties. Unfortunately, I think there is some liklihood that totally rediculous rationales like that might really be used by some warped bureaucrats who don't quite grasp that such actions destroy "the land of the free" they think they are trying to preserve. God save us from ourselves.

Thats my biggest fear, and thus my post the other day regarding locked bank accounts.

I too have a feeling that Neteller will cooperate to the fullest extent with US officials - handing over any and all paperwork that is requested. I figure any affiliate and/or marketer with transactions over a certain amount are going to set off internal alarms and will become subsequent targets.

Those warped bureaucrats and their armies of slaves/devotees will devour us like a swarm of army ants at a family picnic - just because they can. I dont know about you guys but being labeled an enemy combatant and having the key thrown away isnt my cup of tea.

[ogpaper]

Neteller has alrerady confirmed that they are cooperating fully to FBI.

As far as checks - the average US bank processes probably over 10,000 financial transactions an hour, and there are 100s of average US banks in the States, plus small banks, large banks...And there are probably 10,000s banks all over the world...So that database is quite bigger, and if a casino changes bank accounts every 1-2 months - there will not be enough time for the US banks - by the time they catch up on one account - there is already another one which replaced it.

If the checks are issued in Euro or Pound Sterling - it gets even harder.

Not to mention the man hours it would take for each bank to start analyzing checks and transfers to see if they are gambling related or not. They'll probably have to hire 10 people to work around the clock just to scratch the surface.

FBI is just using scare tactics, which are working. Maybe we'll see a few more arrests just so they would make it clear, but that should be it

[matted]

One of the most important things in my mind is we are talking exclusively about the actions of the US executive branch of government. They are the ones using fear and intimidation to stifle civil liberties. To my knowledge, there still has not been a court ruling that in any way infers offshore gaming is illegal. The international community is starting to speak up against Bush's foreign policy and disregard for international law.

[ogpaper]

As it was shown - they dont have to convict anyone, just accuse a few dudes - and your job is almost done

[kenonut]

As it was shown - they dont have to convict anyone, just accuse a few dudes - and your job is almost done

Amen to that. It may never even go the trial with the 2 former Neteller execs, but just for the fact that the US government has shown how far it will reach to get the message accross was enough. As soon as the Neteller guys were arrested, nearly all of the other online gambling payment processors and many casino operators bailed out on the US customers, so you don't really need to have anyone convicted or even go to trial. The damage has alreay been done and the US goverment knows it.

[techwoman]

Wow...

This so called democratic country has regressed back to the days of using intimidation and threats to control its people. Even worse it stretches it's intimidating and threatening hands out to the rest of the world. This is insanity!