Advantage Play Terms

[Roulette Zeitung]

Hello Nico , Whirney and Yusra ,

welcome to this flowery place in the turmoil of casino business.

A few minutes ago I rented one of the best movies ever, the 1964 Cold War thriller "Fail Safe" with Henry Fonda with Amazon Instant Video.

Before I start watching it in half an hour the 2nd time in my life after over 35 years, one question regarding your terms lie on my heart:

Affiliate Obligations
[...]
102. [...] For the purposes of this Agreement, 'advantage' play [...] traffic will not be included in determining any Commissions due to You. If You have any questions as to what constitutes 'advantage' [...] play, You are urged to contact Your relationship manager.

I am sorry, I have no relationship manager. It will be very nice, if one member of your trio please explain me, what exactly "advantage play" is, because this is a very important point.

Thank you!

Leopold

[Roulette Zeitung]

7. August

Hello Nico , Whirney and Yusra ,

welcome to this flowery place in the turmoil of casino business. [...] It will be very nice, if one member of your trio please explain me, what exactly "advantage play" is, because this is a very important point.

Last activity:

Nico: 29 Jul 2014
Whirney: 31 Jul 2014
Yusra: 30 Jul 2014

Flying Dutchman?



Leopold

[Nico Fast Track]

Hi Guys & Gals

Many thanks for the warm welcome. Appreciate it.

@Roulette Zeitung > Many thanks for the question. The term "advantage play" may refer to a player who uses certain betting or game play techniques to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. Examples may include Hedge Betting, Double up Systems etc. If the casino is able to see a continues pattern involving these techniques/strategies, the casino reserves the right to lock the players account after refunding the deposit. Hope this helps

@edgarf76 > No we are not a sister company of Vista.


Please feel free to drop me a mail (nico@fasttrackaffiliates.net) or skype (nico.skypechat) at any time.

[Roulette Zeitung]

The term "advantage play" may refer to a player who uses certain betting or game play techniques to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. Examples may include [...] Double up Systems etc. If the casino is able to see a continues pattern involving these techniques/strategies, the casino reserves the right to lock the players account after refunding the deposit.

Your public statement as a GPWA sponsor is, that players, who use e.g. the most stupid system on Earth, the so called Martingale ("Double up Systems") "gain an unfair advantage over the casino" and that you "reserves the right to lock the players account after refunding" [only] "the deposit"?

???

Thank you very much for this clear words.

It's sad that I have to explain a casino program representative simple math, because there is no way to reduce the house edge of 2,7% at Roulette with any "unfair" (!!!???) "Double up Systems".

On the contrary! Because of the table limits it's a mathematical fact, that even without Zero (!) the casino will have a safe income!

And the players are not the only one who have to suffer:

Affiliate Obligations
[...]
102. [...] For the purposes of this Agreement, 'advantage' play [...] traffic will not be included in determining any Commissions due to You.

A big part of players are playing Martingale or progressions like that. Many starters play this style! So for all these players the webmaster will not get any credit?

Moreover: It's a well known unethical practice in the casino industry to refuse player winnings with tricks like this. If this is the truth and this term will remain as it is, then I have no other choice than to warn all German speaking players on some important German speaking forums quoting this statement, and I have to take a closer look at all your player terms.

The cake is really big enough, and I don't understand, why again and again some programs are using terms, that are mathematically nonsense and pitfalls at the same time.

Sorry, but this have nothing to do with serious business.

If I have misunderstood your statement, and your interpretation of "unfair" (!!!???) "Double up Sytems etc." is different, then please explain it with further details.

2,7% will remain 2,7%, no matter if you play flat bet or with a progression!

Leopold

[Roulette Zeitung]

"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance."
(Thomas Sowell)



Leopold

[Nico Fast Track]

Dear edgarf76,

I answered your question earlier within this thread with regards to vista (posted on 14 August):

Hi Guys & Gals

Many thanks for the warm welcome. Appreciate it.

@Roulette Zeitung > Many thanks for the question. The term "advantage play" may refer to a player who uses certain betting or game play techniques to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. Examples may include Hedge Betting, Double up Systems etc. If the casino is able to see a continues pattern involving these techniques/strategies, the casino reserves the right to lock the players account after refunding the deposit. Hope this helps

@edgarf76 > No we are not a sister company of Vista.


Please feel free to drop me a mail (nico@fasttrackaffiliates.net) or skype (nico.skypechat) at any time.

Dear Roulette Zeitung,

I also addressed your question within the same post with regards to advantage play. I mentioned the double up system and hedge betting as examples. There are lots of different strategies that might be used to gain an unfair advantage. This is a very common term within online casino terms and conditions to protect the casino. But then you probably know this already, seeing as you sell Roulette strategies on the site you have listed on your profile: www.roulettezeitung.com

You chose to point out one way of using the double up system, but there are many ways. Using it on a number would give you really bad odds, using it on red or black would give you better odds and using it on red or black or other outside bets in conjunction with other systems would give you even better odds. The clause within the terms and conditions are there to protect us in case an unfair advantage is gained over the casino.
There are lots of other ways of gaining an advantage over the casino through advantage play like promo abuse. Players may use certain betting methods to unfairly reach wagering requirements if the promo allowed for it.

Online casinos will put limitations on promos to avoid this based on previous knowledge but new ways of gaining an advantage over the casino might arise in future thus the need for the term to protect the casino.

Also, a promo might have been set up in an incorrect way exposing the casino. Example: If roulette was not excluded from meeting wagering requirements a player could place the same bet on red and black repeatedly until wagering requirements were met, not losing any credits unless zero was hit. This will be seen as promo abuse through advantage play.

I do not have the time, or knowledge to explain every possible scenario to you as I am clearly not a mathematical genius (as you so "kindly" pointed out)

It's sad that I have to explain a casino program representative simple math, because there is no way to reduce the house edge of 2,7% at Roulette with any "unfair" (!!!???) "Double up Systems".

There are a very few limited number of cases where this is a problem and when it does happen we take the necessary steps to ensure we are making the correct call and if there is any doubt in our minds we do further investigations to validate our findings. Bonus abusers and advantage play go hand in hand and players who choose to repeat these strategies across multiple platforms get flagged and we also have access to this information to not only protect the casino, but more importantly to protect you as the affiliate against players like these. If we do not take these steps you as an affiliate will not reap any benefit but might find your commission dropping because nothing was done about it.

PS.. I find it very ungentleman-like for someone to advertise other affiliate programs on our welcome thread as well as find it baffling that you think you reserve the right to decide whether or not we belong on GPWA.

[Roulette Zeitung]

"Bonus abusers and advantage play go hand in hand"

And the logical conclusion of this statement is, that -from your view- advantage play and bonus abusers go hand in hand.

It's not a matter of emphasis.

Again: Using Martingale or other progressions is not an "advantage" play" This is sheer nonsense!

"players who choose to repeat these strategies across multiple platforms get flagged and we also have access to this information to not only protect the casino"

First you are accusing ordinary players to be bad, and now you give the audience a public statement, that privacy data will be collected (that's o.k., but not o.k. is), that you have access to this information under false flag (accusing players), and player's privacy data [if he is suspect] will be open for 3rd parties (your program). Players are blacklisted only because of an "advantage play" pitfall your program is using AND HIDING [LATER MORE IN THIS POST], only because playing a game play that generations of roulette players are using since over 200 years!

Why privacy data?

Because you can't flag and blacklist players user names. That makes no sense. User names can be changed, privacy data not.

By the way: With the normal casino terms in the industry (one account e.g. per household, mailing address) innocent people have to suffer under kin liability.

It is highly probable that a player who is playing Martingale ("advantage play" ) at your casinos and will lose his $500, will not be classified as a hostile, not flagged, his privacy data not collected on a special list and forwarded.

But a player who will play exactly the same pattern (and this is not a surprise if he is playing Martingale because thousands are playing this progression exactly in the same way in this moment in the internet in all casinos of the industry)) and after winning $3.000 is going to the cashier to cashout will be classified as a hostile, flagged, winnings will be confiscated and his privacy data will be abused.

You see the problem and why every (!) "advantage play" term is nonsense and a free ticket to refuse payouts?

My thoughts about privacy data are crystal clear: https://www.gpwa.org/forum/leopolds-...tml#post764116

It makes no difference if privacy data came from players or from webmasters.

Players are no outlawed morons!

You confirm, that you have an "advantage play" term in your drawer.
The consequences for the player are very, very, very heavy (confiscating winnings, privacy data ...)

And now the sixty-four-thousand-dollar question ... !!!

Why I can't find the words "advantage play" not even "advantage" in the player terms of your brands?

Or missed I something?


I will close this post to show the audience the absurdity of this term and the statement

"Bonus abusers and advantage play go hand in hand"

----

Live Chat with Grand Fortune Casino

Pieter: What can I help you with

you: Is your bonus sticky?

Pieter: ARe you referring to the sign up bonus?

you: Yes.

Pieter: The bonus isnt sticky no

you: Is it allowed to play roulette with the bonus?

you: To meet the conditions.

Pieter: The wagering requirement on the bonus is 35x bonus + deposit

you: Roulette too or only slots?

you: Can I play roulette to wager.

you: ?

Pieter: Unfortunately you wouldt be able to play roulette

Pieter: Only slots

you: Thank You!

----

If the Martingale player isn't allowed to wager the bonus with roulette, then it's simply impossible, that he is a "bonus abuser" who play "unfair" with "advantage play".

A paradox!

Leopold

[Nico Fast Track]

ADVANTAGE PLAY

Let me be clear on the matter. The topic is not about the double up system, it is about what we deem as advantage play. I used the double up system as an example. ANY system or type of promotional abuse that gives a player an unfair advantage over the casino is deemed to be advantage play. If a player doubles up on his bets playing on roulette while betting on numbers he will not be seen as an advantage player as betting limits prohibits an advantage.

But this system MIGHT be used in other ways and or in conjunction with other systems, not just on roulette. Isolating the system or any other system with regards to how it can be implemented on one specific game in one specific way, in this case Roulette, does not help. This is not what was implied or stated. It was an assumption, among other assumptions, based on personal opinion.

The casino protects itself and affiliates against players who use any form of advantage play over the casino be it through betting systems or promo abuse. I cannot understand why any affiliate would want such a player playing under his/her affiliate account. It is there for protection. If someone was selling a roulette system which implied an advantage over the casino they might not like this term.

When such a decision is made it is based on an investigation, and yes, surely some players might not like the outcome. Especially if they spent money on some type of system advertised over the internet. Their deposit will be refunded or in some cases the casino might even grant them their winnings but ban them from any bonuses. The casino reserves the right to make these decisions based on the investigation.

Bonus abusers and advantage play go hand in hand and players who choose to repeat these strategies across multiple platforms get flagged and we also have access to this information to not only protect the casino, but more importantly to protect you as the affiliate against players like these.

This does not imply any form of sharing, or abuse of privacy data. We get a notification on a player’s account within the casino software if that player is repeatedly abusing bonuses, claiming charge backs or using methods, systems that show advantage play. Not just on our brand but on any other brands using the same software. This is a simple indication on the account. No privacy data is exchanged.

Hope this is clear enough.
Kind Regards,

Nico

[-Shay-]

Stepping in again --- I think the stated problem is that the terms in the way that they are written allow for a liberal interpretation of the concept of "advantage play".

Personally, I tend to agree that the house edge should be enough protection for the casino and affiliate.

I can understand excluding specific games for bonus purposes - or even upping the rollover requirements for different games but to leave it open to interpretation what exactly an "advantage play" is can be a recipe for disaster and leaves open the possibility of everyone's account coming under review when they press the cash out button.

I understand that this is becoming more and more "the norm" or at least close enough to argue "these are normal terms" but at the end of the day, I personally believe they can easily become predatory if in the wrong hands or if ignored and allowed to become the "real norm".

[Roulette Zeitung]

Hello Shay,

the house edge should be enough protection for the casino and affiliate.

you are right, from the scientific perspective and also from the empirical. The house edge is enough protection for the casino and affiliates.

In the early years casino operators knew, what they do. If you open an restaurant but unable to make calculations or cook delicious scrambled eggs, then it makes no sense.

In the early years the general (European) house edge e.g. at roulette was enough. My family is working since the very first weeks this industry exist and when I see since years programs spring up like mushrooms, then there is no question, that some representatives have absolutely no idea, what gambling is, how gambling works and how players think. They are too young, have no experience with gambling, no life experience, looking at webmasters and players like numbers. Not all of them, but many. They don't understand, that calculations are not needed, because the house edge is the given -safe money making- calculation of this business.

One example:

The (today nearly) general house edge of roulette is 2,7% because if the ball has hit Zero, in most online casinos all bets are lost, also all bets on even chances (red/black even/odd high/low).

But the truth is, that this is an unfair modification of the Zero rules, created in the past by money greeded people in this industry, because the real European roulette (will be offered with unfair conditions in nearly all online casinos) still must have an house edge of only 1,35% on even chances! If the ball has hit Zero, all even chances bets have to immediately divided by two and the half of the wager have to be returned to the player. This is the so called "La Partage" rule. This would be a fair and (!!! ->) original (<-!!!) game play.

In real casinos in Europe you have the "En Prison" rule. The result ist the same: House edge of 1,35% on even chances.

All online casinos with this house edge of 1,35% still make enough profit!

After I saw the Club Gold Casino manager one year ago public on Facebook laughing and drinking Champaign out of a bottle from a silver bucket, the same time dozens of complaints by players were written all over the world, it was clear to me, how big the profit in this industry is.

Later he removed the picture, but the profit still exist, even for one of the worst casinos in this industry.

You see?

I am fed up with all these excuses, that casino have to be protected.

Protected by what???

Advantage play???

In my last post in this thread I show the nonsense of these "protection" by a simple example:

If the Martingale player isn't allowed to wager the bonus with roulette, then it's simply impossible, that he is a "bonus abuser" who play "unfair" with "advantage play".

A paradox

There are still casino software providers, who offers players the original roulette game with good conditions, and I have never heard, that they go broke.

Two examples: Playtech and Boss Media

And the mathematically house edge is not the same as the empirical one. The real (= empirical) house edge is many times higher, because of the strong reduction of table limits and the psychological way of playing online (no real money exist for the subconscious mind -the player is not able to hold real chips with a real value in his hands, only clicks, no real hand made bets).

In the last years I have seen so many ugly, unprofessional, under construction style program websites with sometimes unbelievable stupid or bad terms, with representatives so unprofessional and sometimes really stupid without any idea about gambling (=they are earning their money with), that the only danger for this industry is the flooding with people and programs like that, who only want the (quick) money and nothing else.

It doesn't work out.

Did you recognize, that the foundations of programs in the last years increase progressively?

Sometimes I think: "It's too fast, like a bubble who will burst sooner or later."

Leopold

[Roulette Zeitung]

Fast Track Affiliates / Grand Fortune Casino

13. Accounts are considered dormant after 180 days of inactivity. After this time period, we reserve the right to remove the balance in such dormant accounts.

Source: grandfortunecasino.com/terms-and-conditions/

What a mess!

Instead of payout the player his balance with the last known payment method (There is no risk, because money can't go "lost". It will be rebooked by bank or Neteller or whatever...), the money will be confiscated. In regular free economy with honest and fair commercial practices this is unthinkable.

Show me the legal basis, the wording of the law, that it is allowed to confiscate ... no, that's no right ... to steal the money!

If this industry trend develops, then the question, who is playing advantage, has become redundant.

Give somebody an inch, and he will take a mile.

Leopold

[Nico Fast Track]

We understand the concern with regards to term number 13 within our terms and conditions and we have amended it accordingly as per below:

13. Accounts are considered dormant after 180 days of inactivity. After this time period, such a player will be contacted and be advised that the account has been dormant for 180 days and that the casino will revoke the balance on the account within 30 days after the notification unless the player makes contact with the casino. If a player has not received such a notification, and his balance has been revoked, we will gladly reinstate the balance once a written request has been filed by the player and proper identification has been supplied by such player and verified by the casino.

Kind Regards,

Nico

[Roulette Zeitung]

This terms change can be considered to be a good improvement for players. Other casinos / programs with similar terms can use this as an example. If yes, things are shaping up well.

Leopold