How much does friendship play a part in your business?

[mojo]

Do you feel like you have to be submissive with industry leaders/peers to be successful?

Do you feel that you can't really say what you want? That if you do, it will hurt your business?

Do you feel that you must attend events in order to be successful? And if you become friends with an individual due to one of these events, because you met them in person, would you cover for them in the event of a unscrupulous event?

Or, do you think speaking up on forums helps you. Programs know you will call them out? And you can't be bribed or intimidated to keep your trap closed?

What is better? Azz kissin or brass cajones?

[GFPC]

Brass Cajones!!! All the way.

At least for your own self worth and respect. Never sell yourself out for Washington's. They come and go.

Self worth cannot be bought! Friends can - especially in this industry.

[mojo]

Brass Cajones!!! All the way.

At least for your own self worth and respect. Never sell yourself out for Washington's. They come and go.

Self worth cannot be bought! Friends can - especially in this industry.

Maybe so. But if you speak up to much on forums you won't get the good deals.

So how do you go about insuring your earnings?

[GFPC]

I don't know Mojo I think deep down people are good in nature. They generally fear speaking out publicly but behind closed doors, email, pms, msn. skype they certainly are very vocal to me...

I get pms all the time asking me to say things on their behalf. So many times I cant even count now. People are afraid to speak up.

If good deals means I need to "suck azz" I certainly will not "suck azz" that is just to nasty and I do not want to play follow the leader. That goes on all around us..

I like to be one of a kind

But sometimes it works reverse too - you can get good deals as people secretly respect you for standing up to things.. at least for me anyways.

People are generally afraid to speak up - cant blame them really

Maybe so. But if you speak up to much on forums you won't get the good deals.

So how do you go about insuring your earnings?

[mojo]

I get pms all the time asking me to say things on their behalf. So many times I cant even count now. People are afraid to speak up.

People are generally afraid to speak up - cant blame them really

I get so many mails from folks that want me to speak up because they are afraid to! Even from the most influential.

Good to know I'm not the only one. Thanks Steve.

[cass]

Do you feel like you have to be submissive with industry leaders/peers to be successful?

Do you feel that you can't really say what you want? That if you do, it will hurt your business?

Do you feel that you must attend events in order to be successful? And if you become friends with an individual due to one of these events, because you met them in person, would you cover for them in the event of a unscrupulous event?

Or, do you think speaking up on forums helps you. Programs know you will call them out? And you can't be bribed or intimidated to keep your trap closed?

What is better? Azz kissin or brass cajones?

Good question Paula!

In answer to your question "brass cajones", I'm not familiar with the term, however I take it to stand your ground, strong personal values, to be opinionated etc.

In essence, I think one has to find a fine balance that won't compromise your business ethics pertaining to questions 1 and 2.

As affiliates we find ourselves in a VERY volatile and competitive industry. It's imperative we speak up in the event we note any form of irregularities like rogue casinos, affiliate managers not assisting affiliates etc.

Forums has always been a fantastic platform where affiliates can voice their opinion/s about certain programs they feel are not in compliance with sound business ethics and are out to dupe affiliates.

I don't need to attend events to be successful and if I happen to meet such an individual/s at such an event under no circumstances will I cover for them nor will I accept any form of bribes. No wonder the world finds itself in the state it is today.

Cass,

Internet casinos

[TheGooner]

There are all shades of variation between the two extremes of response that you've outlined Mojo.

One persons interpretation of submissive is another persons interpretation as constructive - especially if trying to mediate some common ground. IT can be surprisingly effective.


Meanwhile one persons version of acting like having brass balls could simply come over as acting like a spoilt child who has no place in the business at all. Brass brains more like ...


So ass kissing hardly ever seems the correct approach - but neither does the all out aggression that brass cajones suggests either.

I'd try to find the middle ground if possible - and if the person still won't listen to what you consider to be reasonable arguments then you're probably well advised to ignore them and steer clear of that person / organisation in future.

---

Regarding convention and event attendance - I certainly don't see them as mandatory - indeed I doubt that very little REAL business gets done as the AM's have so many appointments and little time to devote to actually thinking about a unique proposal.

IF you only want to talk about rubber-stamping an application and/or getting a slight improvement over the carded rate - then surely that can be done over email? Why the pretence of a meeting at conference?

So it's pretty hard to justify a trans-continental flight to justify getting a few "free" drinks and meeting someone for a few minutes. However, if you are fortunate enough to have an event within your region - then it might be cost effective to do once every year or two ...

[SlotsAff]

This is tricky - from an AM's point of view, we try to be friends with our affiliates as it can help business relations.

Saying that, AMs need to be professional and not let personal preferences clout your expertise.

At the end of the day, we all make friends with people we work with - as long as relationships are not exploited, I don't see any harm.

If both parties are professional and respect each other's roles, there won't be any problems.

[danielg]

(Also from an AM's point of view)

I agree with TheGooner, I don't think it's about kissing/kicking axx.

When you're doing a good job- it's good to hear that. When you're not- it's absolutely necessary to hear that.

If the partnership is build on trust, and mutual growth is the purpose behind all comments, then all communication will naturally have a positive effect, doesn't matter if it's complements or criticism.

[GamTrak]

Do you feel like you have to be submissive with industry leaders/peers to be successful?
Nope

Do you feel that you can't really say what you want? That if you do, it will hurt your business?
Nope any damage that can be done is already been done.

Do you feel that you must attend events in order to be successful? And if you become friends with an individual due to one of these events, because you met them in person, would you cover for them in the event of a unscrupulous event?
Nope. I've met many industry folks at events and still speak my mind where applicable and upset a few, but we made up or are in the process of doing so.

Or, do you think speaking up on forums helps you. Programs know you will call them out? And you can't be bribed or intimidated to keep your trap closed?
Yes I speak up when I have an opinion.

What is better? Azz kissin or brass cajones?
brass cajones

Being online is not easy and you have to be dedicated to your business as well as stick to your guns at all times & make amends when you mess up.

[Louis - Income Access]

Maybe so. But if you speak up to much on forums you won't get the good deals.

I disagree with this. Too me, and the affiliate managers I know, setting up deals has everything to do with the potential volume of the campaign, and little to do with personal relationships.

Regarding convention and event attendance... very little REAL business gets done

While I agree with Paul on this one, I do think being able to meet the people you work with has a very real and tangible effect on the ability to understand the person and work better with them. It might not lead to me offering a higher commission, but in terms of communication and trust, it makes a big difference.

OVERALL, Paul is absolutely right that taking a moderated approach is much more effective, especially in the situation where there is a wide gap to close between what affiliates want and what the brand wants. Clearly being meek is not the answer, but flaming a brand everytime there is a minor inconvenience also creates a bit of a "boy who cried wolf" effect which lessons the impact of your voice in a situation where you really do need to speak up.

One last point, which I think is important, is that affiliates also need to put themselves in the shoes of operators from time to time (not just the other way around). This industry is extremely competitive and many brands operate on remarkably thin margins, as a result of the bidding up of player acquisition and retention costs. Every single time I have seen a brand take steps that have been considered "predatory" it has been due to absolute necesity, since the program as a whole was losing money. I'm not justifying, but it does frustrate me to see people simplify the situation down to greed or stupidity, when it obviously is much more complex than that.

[MichaelCorfman]

Do you feel like you have to be submissive with industry leaders/peers to be successful?

No, I don't. I think you have to be true to what you believe to be successful. I've had folks that are far more powerful than myself in terms of money and resources try to tell me what to do. I agree when I think it makes sense, and disagree when I think it does not.

Do you feel that you can't really say what you want? That if you do, it will hurt your business?

When I think it matters I always say what I want, or perhaps more appropriately, what I think is right. I was very clear to the U.S. DOJ what I wanted when I filed a suit against them. There were plenty of folks at the time who thought that might hurt, or even destroy, my business.

Do you feel that you must attend events in order to be successful? And if you become friends with an individual due to one of these events, because you met them in person, would you cover for them in the event of a unscrupulous event?

Yes, I feel attending events is critical to my success. Not typically because of specific business agreements made at conferences. But rather because the relationships and understandings developed by meeting in person with people can often act as a catalyst for things that would never happen otherwise. I've been involved in a number of business acquisitions over the years, and most of those had their seed in relationships that began at conferences and became deep enough over time for that to be the ultimate outcome.

No, I never cover for someone for wrongdoing. But I do provide the type of advice, encouragement, and support I believe a friend should provide when someone goes down a bad path.

Or, do you think speaking up on forums helps you. Programs know you will call them out? And you can't be bribed or intimidated to keep your trap closed?

I feel I work best to effect change by acting as a mediator. And it is not my style to call someone out in public without first speaking with them in private and encouraging them, as strongly as I can, to move in the right direction on their own.

What is better? Azz kissin or brass cajones?

Neither are my style and neither of them works well for me very often. But, in my opinion, once in a blue moon each of them has their place.

Michael

[jctroy440]

Business is business. You're decisions should be based on what is best for your business, not on whose feelings your going to hurt. This is a highly competitive industry as you well know and it will hurt you in the long run to run it with your heart on your sleeve.

If a situation arises, be polite (I'm a bit blunt sometimes) and firm and explain your decision. Most people will understand

Cheers

[casinobonusguy]

To me the conferences did not make a difference to our business,In fact the first three years we travelled to Europe and met a couple managers off site (never went to the conference) then took a cruise.I could not justify the cost to go but making it a business/personal trip we could do this. The conferences gives us an excuse to travel and we are definitely going to Dublin in May .London in January I have always had a difficult time with but I do think it is one of the best events that Alex does.

Judy

[Dominique]

I go to conferences strictly for business. I don't go to the parties but am a party pooper who goes up to her room after dinner and works on the computer.

I meet with people I want to do more business with, or am open to, over meals so there is plenty of time to discuss. I do not do half hour meetings all day, been there, done that, and at the end of the day I can't remember who said what.

If there is an exhibit, I will go through and search out new programs and see what's out there. New softwares also interest me a lot.

I also go to lectures on topics that interest me.

I do socialize with other affiliates, and that often is a mix between fun and business.

I also usually stay on a day or two after the conference is over and go sight seeing and the like. Once I have travelled that far I want to enjoy myself too.

[Betpartners]

I think friendship needs to be defined really

I have met many affiliate managers, especially here in Malta, i have met some at the two conferences i have been to and had a great time with them and while i like them they are acquaintances not friends.

My true friends will get my support almost with no questions asked to be honest.

Not sure about some of the terms mentioned in here all i can do from a personal perspective is be true to me, if i think something needs saying i will say it, if i think it is better served doing it in private then i will do that as well.

I am also a realist though, if i have a disagreement with my biggest money earner i am simply not going to come in to the forums and smash in to him, that to me is self defeating, i have had some proper rows with some affiliates in private, they know who they are, but at the end the problems were resolved and on we march, if we spoke to each other in the forums the way we have done in private then i do not see that my business relationship will have stayed the same.

Point being is that every single decision we do should be carefully managed before we say or do the wrong thing, either positive or negative.

And sometimes whether we like it or not we have to live, we have to provide for our children, we have to pay the mortgage, the bills and everything else that helps all of us maintain our existence and it is that and that alone that should guide you.

Yes you should have standards and morals and principles but when it coems to paying medical bills as an example if that means i gotta kiss an ass then at least have the decency to wash it and put some talcum powder, it is just etiquette.

If i have to kick an ass be assured i have a decent kick and will utilise it with all i can muster.

Short of breaking the law and ruining myself i will do what i have to do to feed my kids, they aint interested in crap if there is no food on the table or if they are in pain because Daddy allowed pride or his huge gob to get in the way and thus prevent daddy from paying for the medicines.

[mojo]

Really great points here and it's awesome to get aff managers POV too. Aff managers should be able to speak up as well and it really helps us all.

There have been mixed feelings on this and I've seen different opinions but I have no answer if it's better to speak up or not.

From the responses here, I'd say the general opinion is that it is valuable to do so.

As far as friendships, I feel that if someone is popular and well liked, they would be treated differently if something went wrong than someone we didn't know. It's just human nature.

When I think it matters I always say what I want, or perhaps more appropriately, what I think is right. I was very clear to the U.S. DOJ what I wanted when I filed a suit against them. There were plenty of folks at the time who thought that might hurt, or even destroy, my business.

Michael

Now that's pretty brassy.

I am still very impressed that you went ahead with that. I really don't think I could have gone through something like that.

[CK - Schalk]

I'm not exactly sure what people think happens at these conferences that it has become such a "hot topic".

Every industry has some kind of conference or get together, because as far as I understand, networking is a very important part of business, and this is exactly what it is, business.

Some affiliates have a more casual approach toward their business (as they should, it's their business and thus their choice how to run it), and some run it as a fully blown corporate entity.

That's what makes this industry so great. You decide on how far you want to take it, and it gives us a scenario where some people walk around the exhibition hall in t-shirts and jeans talking to the odd affiliate manager here and there, and then enjoying a drink with like minded people in the industry (networking), and then on the flip-side, people in business suits making deals and sitting in 2 hour meetings and giving presentations etc.

It's true that affiliates that attend sometimes get a better deal, but this is because most programs that attend would be running special promos for the event (Sign up now and get 30% for the first 3 months blah blah blah). This is because programs pay to attend, and need to show numbers to justify the spend. It would be absolutely silly not to run a promo if you're in a room full of potential affiliates.

That being said, if you run a successful website / affiliate business, I can not think that a single affiliate program would deny you a good deal because they haven't see you swanning around the party scene.

It's also true that people do get treated differently, but this isn't unique to this industry. It's the reality of business. I think that this industry actually has a pretty soft and social approach, and platforms like this here forum ensures that even the smallest most casual affiliate that runs a site part time as a hobby has a voice.

As for being submissive, I don't think that I've even seen that happen. What I do know is that there are certain people in the industry that has won themselves a lot of admiration for the work that they've put in. People take their opinions seriously, and treat them with respect, but I don't think that's being submissive. Also the fact that they generate a lot of business for them and their partners doesn't hurt

I'm sure there are some people that are disappointed that the affiliate industry has become somewhat business like and formal, but on the other hand there are people who are probably frustrated with the fact that it's still so casual. It's still evolving though, and just by being part of it, and actively participating, you can help shape it into what you would like it to be.

My 4 cents.

[Renee]

I had a long post written out until I read Schalk's post and figured there isn't much point me posting what I wrote now, because Schalk has pretty much said what I was thinking.

A few extra points:

I disagree with this. Too me, and the affiliate managers I know, setting up deals has everything to do with the potential volume of the campaign, and little to do with personal relationships.

While I agree with Paul on this one, I do think being able to meet the people you work with has a very real and tangible effect on the ability to understand the person and work better with them. It might not lead to me offering a higher commission, but in terms of communication and trust, it makes a big difference.

100% Agreed on this. It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to pass something better for someone unless the above criteria applies. If it was me just giving better percentages etc to my friends, I wouldn't be still sitting here - I'd be in the dole line.

I do however think it's beneficial for affiliates to meet us in person because it's very hard to lie to someones face, so you get to see how we truly are, our real personalities etc. It does add to how you do business with that person afterwards because you can get a picture in your head of how they are on the other side of the world while coercing with you.

Think of it as a penpal. You write to each other for years until you finally get to meet them in person.. They may or may not be exactly how you pictured, but now that you've met them, you have the perfect picture of what they are like that writing letters could never give you.

It's the same with dating sites. No matter how much you chat with someone over the internet, you can never get a real feel for the person until you've met them face to face. That's when you make your true decision on if the person is for you.

One thing I can truly say though is that just because someone is well liked (regardless of if they are an aff or aff manager), they are not always treated with respect or treated differently if something went wrong as Mojo said. I can speak of that first hand.

Do you feel that you can't really say what you want? That if you do, it will hurt your business?

If I marched into my bosses office every time I had a bone to pick about something, I can guarantee a few things.

1 - They wouldn't take me seriously again, ever.
2 - After a matter of time it would affect my ability to perform my job.
3 - As a consequence of number 2, I would likely not have a job any longer.

I think if you're (anyone) going to say "what you want" you have to be very selective and consider exactly how important that thing is, and what you will accomplish by saying it. Is the way you're saying it, regardless of its importance, going to rub someone the wrong way? Is there a better way to get your message across so that people will consider what you're saying rather than dismissing it because of how you got your message across? Are you going to look like you're making a fuss over spilled milk? Or is what you're saying actually a pertinent part of the business, and by saying it would will actually make things run better, or save people money etc etc etc..

These are all the things I consider whenever I mention anything to my bosses and I think it's definitely something most people could work from.

I can guarantee that if I came into the forums and said what I wanted every time I felt the need, my reputation and my likability would not be what it is.

[mojo]

Some good advice there. It's also reassuring that meeting in person or whether you are active on forums or not does not sway the business deals etc. I have heard it mentioned before and it probably has happened in some cases. But at least it's not the general rule. Good to know!

There should be nothing that we can't do online or the phone as far as the business goes. Though I agree it's really nice to meet people. I think Gooner said it well.

The only thing that I feel differently about is the comparison to a regular job where you would complain to bosses and how to do that correctly as Renee mentioned. With bosses and regular real world jobs, there are laws and protection. If they don't give you your paycheck, you have legal remedies. In most cases we don't enjoy these remedies.

Many of us do not have legal backup or options when problems arise so it's kind of a free for all when trying to fight for your living.

So if programs change t/c's that directly effects the bottom line, does posting help? It seems to be the only thing we have going for us. Or if your stats are messed up and you can't get any help with your am, then you post. I have a stat problem right now but am working quietly with my AM.

Posting could effect you adversly though because AM's could get upset with you. I think that results in some affs who are afraid to post.

How do AM's feel about that? Is there a better way?