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Thread: Bitcoin Vent

  1. #21
    TheSpry is offline Private Member
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    Ahh, yeah I understand what you are saying there. TBH though it's the exchanges fault. Why can't you log in and sell/trade during volatile times? Not the fault of the affiliate program, it's the fault of the exchange. Technically they dont know...

    But I feel you on that if they would have waited and calculated the price at the time they sent it today, you could more or less instantly exchange it because the exchange was working smoothly.

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    Hi, It really depends on many factors. But I think the main factor is that it really does all come down to the exchange itself, plus the timing and everything else, too.

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    Those of you who kept your Bitcoin as an investment will be able to sell the free Bitcoin Cash coins for extra profit now that it has become an altcoin.
    If you are using an exchange service, then they will have a wide spread in times of volatility, and that's where much of the losses you mention will go. I run a full node with its own wallet, and I don't need to give money to the exchanges.

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    Bitcoin is in a bubble, make no mistake. The episode, for some, will end badly while others reap the rewards of getting in on the action early and, more importantly, getting out before the bust.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJM View Post
    You are missing the point - they sent right at the time of a major development that caused exchanges to freeze and delay access to the coins. I had to wait 18 hours to be able to sell mine, during that time it dropped 15% - where normally I could sell mine straight away.

    had they sent today, tomorrow, or theee days ago - that wouldn't have been the case.
    How many times did you get paid and it increased in value quickly?

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by slotplayer View Post
    How many times did you get paid and it increased in value quickly?
    I cashout my business revenue as soon as it's recieved. My bit coin trading and investments are done seperately.

    This was the first time I couldn't do that in a quick time frame.

    sitting on payments recieved while trading and timing the market seems like a bit of a tax/accounting nightmare.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJM View Post
    sitting on payments recieved while trading and timing the market seems like a bit of a tax/accounting nightmare.
    I am like you - company transactions are separate from personal investing. And USUALLY I transfer my BTC quickly to avoid shocks.

    However there are times when I need to hold onto payments and "time" the markets both for Crypto payments and fiat payments. I actually run multiple forex accounts anyway (USD, GBP, EUR) as very few affiliate programs want to pay in NZD.

    It's actually not THAT much of a nightmare - you just need a consistent approach.

    There are two possible options :

    One option is to consider that BTC is not a currency - and so payments made in BTC that have yet to be converted to FIAT are effectively not yet paid - so they are treated like any other unpaid invoice and noted as paid only when FIAT is collected in your account.

    The second option is to treat BTC as a currency - treat the invoice as paid when you receive the BTC and at balance date simply value the BTC to your local currency. When you finally convert the BTC to FIAT you have made a capital gain or capital loss and that's a separate transaction.

    I do the second method as that allows me to minimise conversion charges, and time currency exchange transactions (just like you do with BTC) in order to get the best rate. A good example is right now where we are having a local election - and the NZD is down as a result of uncertainty - meaning I can bring back the last few months earnings at a 5-10% bonus rate.

    It sounds a bit confusing - but really it quite simple - you state all your FOREX / Crypto holding at balance date - the local equivalent - and the conversion rate. That allows you to BOOK the invoice. Then when you finally do bring it back - you also note the actual conversion rate - and book a currency exchange gain/loss.

    It is a bit more work - but it does enable us to get better rates with one big trasnaction - and usually make a gain on exchange when compared to just accepting market rates whenever we are paid.

    The only thing I will note is that you need to maintain a good local currency balance in order to pay local bills and taxes if you are doing this as it can be a wee while between conversions if the market moves away from you. (or you bite the bullet and book an exchange loss)

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  10. #28
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    What you need to do is come to an agreement with the affiliate program.

    Meaning that you set a date of when you get paid. For example, you set the cryptocurrency payment to be paid on the 7th of each month. So regardless of the current value of the coin, you will get whatever it's worth on that day. Let's say the 7th falls on a Saturday, so on the 9th they need to send you the bitcoin payment of whatever it was worth on the 7th. That way you don't let them play around with your commission.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Betivity View Post
    What you need to do is come to an agreement with the affiliate program.

    Meaning that you set a date of when you get paid. For example, you set the cryptocurrency payment to be paid on the 7th of each month. So regardless of the current value of the coin, you will get whatever it's worth on that day. Let's say the 7th falls on a Saturday, so on the 9th they need to send you the bitcoin payment of whatever it was worth on the 7th. That way you don't let them play around with your commission.
    Exactly, that's also what I advocated earlier. That creates fairness and standardization. The "problem," however, is that since there is no enforceable regulation or law about such things, it requires a commitment to principle by those holding the money for that to occur. How many are capable of being committed to such principles when money is the subject matter? Some might go for it, though, or at least claim to, since it could be good for business in terms of attracting affiliates.

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Domains View Post
    Exactly, that's also what I advocated earlier. That creates fairness and standardization. The "problem," however, is that since there is no enforceable regulation or law about such things, it requires a commitment to principle by those holding the money for that to occur. How many are capable of being committed to such principles when money is the subject matter? Some might go for it, though, or at least claim to, since it could be good for business in terms of attracting affiliates.
    True, there needs to be some type of commitment of some sort. Its a matter of knowing the affiliate program and having some trust in them. There should be some written agreement that they will honor the current value of bitcoin in a determined date month after month. Having that "contract" can help with leverage in case they stop respecting the agreement. But yeah, I get your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Betivity View Post
    What you need to do is come to an agreement with the affiliate program.

    Meaning that you set a date of when you get paid. For example, you set the cryptocurrency payment to be paid on the 7th of each month. So regardless of the current value of the coin, you will get whatever it's worth on that day. Let's say the 7th falls on a Saturday, so on the 9th they need to send you the bitcoin payment of whatever it was worth on the 7th. That way you don't let them play around with your commission.
    Yeah - you clearing are missing the point. You have the complete wrong end of the stick. No-one is owed BTC. They are owed a FIAT value.
    Programs are not "playing a game" to pay a lower BTC number. Setting a specific date makes no difference.

    I believe that the programs are attempting to pay fairly but many delays mean that there is a significant difference in the realisable value of the BTC when compared to the sent value.

    The issue is that affiliates want to be paid fair value - specifically the FIAT value they are owed.
    BTC is highly volatile - and using BTC as a payment instrument does not guarantee fair value received even just 48 hours after it was sent.

    --------

    What is happening is :

    - The program calculates a BTC equivalent to the FIAT owed in-house - let's say USD $40K owed is 10 BTC @ $4000 each.
    - They then send the list of payments and addresses to the BTC payment firm (delays occur)
    - The BTC payment firm pays it with a small fee so inclusion in blocks is delayed .. again!
    - The BTC arrives in wallet at any time or day or night - affiliate is not aware (more delays)
    - No email or transaction receipt is ever sent.
    - The affiliate then needs to get the BTC to an exchange and convert to FIAT - which can take 60 minutes - or 12 hours.

    While BTC is stable or going up - then those delays are OK - no negative effect.
    When BTC is in meltdown (which is about 1 time in 5) then there is a significant potential drop in value. This month it was -25 to -33%.

    --------

    An anology :

    It is somewhat like me buying $200 of lottery tickets in order to to pay you $200 owed.
    You might win more - you might lose some value - you might even want some lottery tickets ... but I reckon you'd prefer the $200 in cash
    (Then you can choose what to invest in)

    Well - I don't want to be paid in lottery tickets, sports bets, or any other highly variable commodity like BTC.
    I DON'T want to take part a volatile market over 48 hours - I just want the bill paid in the correct cash value.

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  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    Yeah - you clearing are missing the point.
    I would say not so, Gooner, not missing the point. Here's what it's clear "we" want, as in those of us advocating for it: we want a set standardized "date payable" worth of Bitcoin. It's that simple. We are willing take the risk that it might be worth more or less in a short time. But if the "date payable" is the 10th of the month, then we want the equivalent Bitcoin in terms of fiat that would have been payable on the 10th, we do not want the equivalent of some other day. So if we were owed 2 whole Bitcoins on the 10th at $5,000 each, but Bitcoin rose 100% in price by Monday to $10,000, we do not want 1 Bitcoin by Monday. 2 is owed. The same principle applies if it's not in our favor and Bitcoin is only worth $2,500 by Monday. But if the payment is late in a detrimental way, there should also be compensation. That's principle, that's standardization, and that's being willing to take some risk vs. no risk out of preference for Bitcoin. If you or anyone else prefers only fiat, however, that's fine too, your choice. I like both.

  16. #33
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    What you might want is BTC - but that doesn't fit the thread - which is about the variability of affiliate payment amounts.
    The business we are is a FIAT business - with amounts owed are clearly defined and denominated in FIAT currency - not BTC.

    In this case - which is every single gaming partner I work with - I expect to receive payment for that amount as defined in FIAT.
    Being paid in BTC means jumping through extra hoops and even then sometimes receiving 25% LESS than I expected.

    And BTC is still irrelevant to the business we are in - 99.9% of wagers and accounting is done in FIAT.

    I don't want Lottery tickets, Pork Bellies, Stock Options, magic beans ... or BTC
    I want the cold hard cash - or failing that a commodity that I can reliably convert into that cold hard cash.

    BTC is NOT that animal all the time - sometimes it is - but it's still a frequent problem.
    Perhaps in the future it will be solved with call/put options at fixed dates. But not yet.

    If programs sent me the Tether (USDT) token - a crypto tied to the USD value - then that would be great.
    They can acquire BTC - they can convert to USDT - and send me USDT which I can convert at a very stable rate.

    Although I'd probably prefer a EURT token.


    -------------------------

    If you make your domain deals in BTC - then that's your business.

    But if you do - then you would clearly expect to receive that BTC amount - and probably in BTC token.
    You wouldn't expect a FIAT number, or DASH or MONERO that was lower than the current rate just because it was right four days ago.

    -------------------------

    To be fair - the exposure that I have gained to BTC and as a result the crypto-verse in general - has massively helped my personal investing. I have significant crypto holdings, due in no small part in being forced to learn all about this space in order to know how to handle the payments.

    But that does NOT mean that paying in BTC during times of rapid drops is appropriate.

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  18. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    What you might want is BTC - but that doesn't fit the thread - which is about the variability of affiliate payment amounts.
    The business we are is a FIAT business - with amounts owed are clearly defined and denominated in FIAT currency - not BTC.
    I think this is the crux of arguments. The players are playing in Fiat, the Casino is earning in Fiat, but they are paying in Bitcoin. If I've earned 10k commission I don't want 10k worth of bitcoin, I want 10k.

    The delays are meaning you could endup with 7,500 or 12,500 depending on market fluctuation during the payment and conversion period. If the affiliate program want the lower fee's etc Bitcoin provides, they need to ensure the end user is receiving the correct amount of Fiat.

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  20. #35
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    The fact that payments are made in Bitcoin is a massive plus for me, and one of the reasons that I am returning to casino promotion. The current attitude that UK residents should be forced to accept Euros ( which are useless to me) is far more annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    I expect to receive payment for that amount as defined in FIAT.
    I only advocate what I do for when BTC is a choice, but when it is no longer a choice with some programs vs. wanting fiat instead, then I definitely do not support that arrangement at all. In my opinion those who want fiat from a program paid and operating in fiat should receive fiat.

    And regarding being paid in fiat and programs minimizing expenses, wouldn't ACH be the answer to that?
    Last edited by Top Domains; 20 September 2017 at 2:42 pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas Roll View Post
    The fact that payments are made in Bitcoin is a massive plus for me, and one of the reasons that I am returning to casino promotion. The current attitude that UK residents should be forced to accept Euros ( which are useless to me) is far more annoying.
    Hello,

    I couldn't agree more with you regarding Bitcoin being a massive plus for you. It's also a massive plus for us. I can see now that Bitcoin is really starting to take up the market more and more every day.

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