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  1. #1
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    Default Chargebacks: Removed from your MGR or your Commissions?

    Had a discussion with one of our partners recently about some chargebacks we saw on our account ledger. They were nice round numbers like $300 and $175 and it seemed odd to us. These were amounts directly removed from our commissions paid.

    When we questioned our AM about it, he said that was standard. We disagreed. At all of our other poker programs, chargebacks are taken against MGR, not owed commissions. He said he'd look into it and get back to us.


    Do you know of any programs who make the affiliate pay the full price if a player charges back a deposit?

    It makes much more sense for a ding against MGR, whereby for example the $300 charge would be multiplied by our commission percentage to determine what we pay. In this example, $300 chargeback * .35 commission rate = $105 of actual commission lost. However, our partner has gone ahead and taken $300 of commission out of our pockets as if we were fully liable for the chargebacks of our players.


    What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROFRBcom View Post
    Had a discussion with one of our partners recently about some chargebacks we saw on our account ledger. They were nice round numbers like $300 and $175 and it seemed odd to us. These were amounts directly removed from our commissions paid.

    When we questioned our AM about it, he said that was standard. We disagreed. At all of our other poker programs, chargebacks are taken against MGR, not owed commissions. He said he'd look into it and get back to us.


    Do you know of any programs who make the affiliate pay the full price if a player charges back a deposit?

    It makes much more sense for a ding against MGR, whereby for example the $300 charge would be multiplied by our commission percentage to determine what we pay. In this example, $300 chargeback * .35 commission rate = $105 of actual commission lost. However, our partner has gone ahead and taken $300 of commission out of our pockets as if we were fully liable for the chargebacks of our players.


    What do you think?
    chargebacks should be at most at the amount that you have received in commission from that player, that should be reversed.
    otherwise it would mean that they make profit on chargebacks because you would be paying for it... ****** up!

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  5. #3
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    I would like to add a comment for this topic.

    The ways how we manage the chargebacks in IGTpartners with affiliates are:
    - a proportional part of the NGR generated (in case of Revenue Share deal)
    - the full CPA commission paid for that player (in case of a CPA deal)
    - a mix of the two above (in case of Hybrid deal).

    I think is the most fair way to manage them.
    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROFRBcom View Post

    It makes much more sense for a ding against MGR, whereby for example the $300 charge would be multiplied by our commission percentage to determine what we pay. In this example, $300 chargeback * .35 commission rate = $105 of actual commission lost. However, our partner has gone ahead and taken $300 of commission out of our pockets as if we were fully liable for the chargebacks of our players.
    What do you think?
    I think this is how most programs pass on the cost. Are there any that pass on the full cost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahfree View Post
    chargebacks should be at most at the amount that you have received in commission from that player, that should be reversed.
    otherwise it would mean that they make profit on chargebacks because you would be paying for it... ****** up!
    That would be ****** up. I have been thinking recently that banks also like chargebacks. Reason I say this is because they charge a chargeback fee which is usually around $40 per chargeback. So if someone deposits $20, 100 times the penalty can be 4k on 2k worth of chargbacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROFRBcom View Post
    Had a discussion with one of our partners recently about some chargebacks we saw on our account ledger. They were nice round numbers like $300 and $175 and it seemed odd to us. These were amounts directly removed from our commissions paid.

    When we questioned our AM about it, he said that was standard. We disagreed. At all of our other poker programs, chargebacks are taken against MGR, not owed commissions. He said he'd look into it and get back to us.


    Do you know of any programs who make the affiliate pay the full price if a player charges back a deposit?

    It makes much more sense for a ding against MGR, whereby for example the $300 charge would be multiplied by our commission percentage to determine what we pay. In this example, $300 chargeback * .35 commission rate = $105 of actual commission lost. However, our partner has gone ahead and taken $300 of commission out of our pockets as if we were fully liable for the chargebacks of our players.


    What do you think?
    Pretty sure this is the America's Card Room, Black Chip Poker and Bookmaker Group?

    They are the only program that I *think* handles them this way, I never promoted them after they *seized/took/stole* my bookmaker affiliate account and took my sheet and all my active players because I wasn't sending enough new players a month.

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    the solution is simple...kick this brand from your page.

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    Don't quote me on this (not sure if it still happens) but BrightShare were deducting the full chargeback at one stage. Including the chargeback processor fee.

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    BetOnline (commission.bz) deduct 100% of the chargeback. It is the one MAJOR problem with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hublot View Post
    Pretty sure this is the America's Card Room, Black Chip Poker and Bookmaker Group?

    They are the only program that I *think* handles them this way, I never promoted them after they *seized/took/stole* my bookmaker affiliate account and took my sheet and all my active players because I wasn't sending enough new players a month.
    As I recall, Bookmaker has minimum requirements clearly stated, when signing up. They also don't pay for poker, but only for sports and casino. So we don't do business with them.

    With regard to ACR, BCP, True, aka Winning Poker Network/Affiliates, the chargebacks hit MGR, not commissions according to our records. Albeit, we have had very few chargebacks with them over the years and that is surprising because we have a very large number of customers there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROFRBcom View Post
    As I recall, Bookmaker has minimum requirements clearly stated, when signing up. They also don't pay for poker, but only for sports and casino. So we don't do business with them.

    With regard to ACR, BCP, True, aka Winning Poker Network/Affiliates, the chargebacks hit MGR, not commissions according to our records. Albeit, we have had very few chargebacks with them over the years and that is surprising because we have a very large number of customers there.
    I wasn't sure to be honest, but then I am wrong.

    Bookmaker 10000% didn't have any quotas or minimum player terms when I signed up with them back in 2004, they retroactively applied the new terms they instituted to my affiliate account. Either way, what's done is done, I don't work with that group anymore.

    Can you please share with us the group that is doing this tactic?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by happyfeet View Post
    Don't quote me on this (not sure if it still happens) but BrightShare were deducting the full chargeback at one stage. Including the chargeback processor fee.
    Definitely - I was about to post the same thing. They got me with that one a few years ago.

    In hindsight when that happened I should have seen the writing on the wall...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hublot View Post
    Can you please share with us the group that is doing this tactic?
    I'd like to know this too. BetOnline deducts 100% of the chargeback and applied a large chargeback last month to us (it showed as: "March Chargebacks Added In April"). Would be interesting to see if your chargebacks came from the same firm and at the same time. A real shame because they are otherwise a good firm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    I'd like to know this too. BetOnline deducts 100% of the chargeback and applied a large chargeback last month to us (it showed as: "March Chargebacks Added In April"). Would be interesting to see if your chargebacks came from the same firm and at the same time. A real shame because they are otherwise a good firm.
    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    BetOnline (commission.bz) deduct 100% of the chargeback. It is the one MAJOR problem with them.
    Yes, this is the group we were talking about. BetOnline and Sportsbetting.ag, both brands at Commission.bz, are seemingly deducting 100% of the chargebacks directly from our commissions.

    Again, other sites normally deduct such things from Gross Rake/Casino and Sports winnings. The effect, for those of us on revshare plans, is that most sites only ding you for the chargeback * your commission rate as it's taken out of gross commissions before calculating the net. Commission.bz brands BetOnline and Sportsbetting.ag take the full 100% charge back amount directly out of your net commissions! Thus, you pay for any customers who charge back, in full, out of your own pocket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leone_IGT View Post
    I would like to add a comment for this topic.

    The ways how we manage the chargebacks in IGTpartners with affiliates are:
    - a proportional part of the NGR generated (in case of Revenue Share deal)
    - the full CPA commission paid for that player (in case of a CPA deal)
    - a mix of the two above (in case of Hybrid deal).

    I think is the most fair way to manage them.
    Cheers!

    Agreed. Your methods seem fair. It seems that most of the industry agrees with you as well, because at all of our other poker partners, this is also how they handle charge backs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROFRBcom View Post
    Yes, this is the group we were talking about. BetOnline and Sportsbetting.ag, both brands at Commission.bz, are seemingly deducting 100% of the chargebacks directly from our commissions.

    Again, other sites normally deduct such things from Gross Rake/Casino and Sports winnings. The effect, for those of us on revshare plans, is that most sites only ding you for the chargeback * your commission rate as it's taken out of gross commissions before calculating the net. Commission.bz brands BetOnline and Sportsbetting.ag take the full 100% charge back amount directly out of your net commissions! Thus, you pay for any customers who charge back, in full, out of your own pocket.
    Thanks. Yes I knew it must be them once I saw them on your website because, personally, I have never encountered any other firm that deducts 100% in the 19 years that I have been in this business. I have reduced their exposure since the recent chargeback (which suspiciously also coincided time-wise with your recent chargeback). The last time I got hammered by chargebacks with them they did a deal to reduce my exposure to them in return for guaranteed position, but that seems ridiculous and leaves a bitter taste in hindsight given they should not be charging 100% anyway. As I said, a real shame because the firm converts well and can make good money when this chargeback situation is ignored.

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    I can't stand programs that scam affiliates on chargeback deductions.

    Back in the day, when people actually trusted Lock Poker, I kind of launched a decent-sized scandal over at PAL because I called them out on the most insane deduction I had ever seen. I was on CPA, and they did something like deduct the actual deposit amount from my end commissions.

    If I had 10 players at a $150 CPA I would have made $1,500. One of the players charged back $1,000 so they actually took $1,000 off the payment, despite me actually only being credited with $150 for that player.

    We got a lot of heat on them and I think they ended up changing the policy as a result. Unbelievable.

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    Wow, that would be unbelievable... except it was from Lock Poker. So I'm not surprised. Such huge holes in their balance sheet, no shocker they were doing scammy **** to help plug the leaks in their terrible business model.

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    Hey PROFRBbcom, I have been hit again with chargebacks for "May", already showing in "financial statement" section, have you?

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    Yeah, they were awful and I stopped dealing with them long before they got exposed for the ultimate scam and disappeared. Here's to hoping Jennifer and Shane find their way to the back of a prison cell one day.

    Anyway, to your point, totally agree that chargebacks should never be taken off of actual commissions unless it's CPA. The maximum that should be deducted should always be the maximum the affiliate could have been paid.

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