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  1. #1
    Toni is offline Public Member
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    Default German player value

    I noticed a major decrease in german player value since the last 12 month.When I started several years ago the average affiliate earning per per german player was 500+. Two years ago the average was about 200.

    But when I only take new players from this year the average went down to something like 50-60 which is ridiculous.

    I sent about 350FDP to programs like rizk, casumo, dunder etc.

    Is it just me having no luck, or are the programs reducing the numbers with fees like crazy?


    Would love to hear some feedback from other affiliates promoting the german market.


    Which german programs are converting best for you in terms of player value ?

  2. #2
    gratisbingo is offline Private Member
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    hi

    have alot of german speaking players to , convert is good , i think the austrian players are really good in player value .

    all the Gig programs , mrgreen and the genesisaffiliates programs are really good if you have alot of german speaking players .

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  4. #3
    Toni is offline Public Member
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    gratisbingo->May I ask what do you think is a german player worth for you ?

  5. #4
    Malikbhai is offline Public Member
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    This phenomenon has been around since the beginning 2014. Folks with larger networks and bigger data sets would be able to concur to my observation.

    Asian markets have picked up. Low on deposits, but high on numbers. Europe is the other way around.

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    Very high value for German player for me still. For example at tipico, who will now steal all my players. I would say 500E at least is still fair value. But I am in sports, not casinos primarily.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
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    Toni is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Very high value for German player for me still. For example at tipico, who will now steal all my players. I would say 500E at least is still fair value. But I am in sports, not casinos primarily.

    That's amazing high. 500 from a good amount of players or just a few with one big highroller ? Tipico is for sure the best known brand in germany. But with the current terms it's nearly not possible to promote them anymore. If you have a few highrollers you need to send so many players next year, that It's nearly impossible to achieve that. Realy crazy terms.

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    Malikbhai is offline Public Member
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    As the time passes, it's not even going to be about what the real value is, but being able to to keep that value without getting it taken away by operators.

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  11. #8
    Malikbhai is offline Public Member
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    My experience tells me that both low and very high number of FTDs start creating problems for affiliates with all types of operators. Too low, you're out, and too high, and they start shaving.

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    Sherlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    That's amazing high. 500€ from a good amount of players or just a few with one big highroller ? Tipico is for sure the best known brand in germany. But with the current terms it's nearly not possible to promote them anymore. If you have a few highrollers you need to send so many players next year, that It's nearly impossible to achieve that. Realy crazy terms.
    I do not have many highrollers, but some and they generate most of the income. Normal portfolio of players. Elsewhere it is the same. Average and median values of player differ a lot. So far I have made from them over 300 E on average, and if tipico were not thieves the show would have gone on for years.

    But really, what is the player value nowadays, when everybody can just steal?
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malikbhai View Post
    My experience tells me that both low and very high number of FTDs start creating problems for affiliates with all types of operators. Too low, you're out, and too high, and they start shaving.
    It is incredible. I think the middles are not long term winners too. But if I promoted Tipico from more affiliate accounts I would be still there.

    News in gambling world: Better tracking? AI approach to players and retention? Progressive retrospective quotas, what an innovation!
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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    Toni is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post

    But really, what is the player value nowadays, when everybody can just steal?
    The thing is that casino operators change their rules whenever they want. So this is not a real contract where one business owner may change
    payout terms like they want. In the real business world nobody would sign such a contract. But this is the affiliate business where affilitates (we) are stupid enough to sign and agree....

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    Let's see. Those changes of contracts are not valid by law. I had one dispute in my life (it was about retroactive change as well) and I won it for that reason. The other thing is that the ones who go to court end with a deal and NDA I am almost sure.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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    Toni is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Let's see. Those changes of contracts are not valid by law.
    Thats true, but nobody will spend the money for a court fight in Malta. And if you win they just shave the player out of your account... But the business realy became shady. I started about 15 years ago and the players stats was real time and 100$ players loss was 100$ = netgaming. Money came in time, no activity clause, no ridiculous fees, shaving not possible because of realtime stats, player value 500$+ and so on. Today I'm sure that many programs shave out highrolles etc. I mean if you change contract terms you will do other things too...

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    I hope they will pay some lump sum and that is it. Not that I disagree with you. The business is done.
    Also the people who worked here 15 years ago were dedicated more, so there is a slight chance, that those non-dedicated robots will not be able to shave.

    Most programs are in a way even more shady compared to Tipico. They shave silently as you say. Betsson for example. Ladbrokes now started and WH is well known for that. Tipico just ***** me openly. I almost give them credit for that Tipico stats until now showed the real value of player and I used it as a benchmark.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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    [QUOTE=Toni;899797]I noticed a major decrease in german player value since the last 12 month./QUOTE]

    Sure...the best slot provider is gone - Greentube/novomatic...the most played slots in every landbased casino.
    And the second problem..full market,casinos everywhere...players jumping around like kangaroos.

    Player value ~ 750€ for 2017...but im not sure about this year...

    Regards
    Last edited by Progger; 28 December 2018 at 6:15 pm. Reason: Quote is broken...who cares...

  20. #16
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    I wonder how you guys calculate player value per country? What formula do you use?

    Is it just net rev/active players?

    If yes, then the "problem" are the highrollers. So you should calculate median player value, not average player value. Because you can easily have 100 active players and one of them generates you 50% of net rev. But this data is normally not available.

    Personally, I'm more interested in the lifetime value of a FTD. And this value is increasing over time, unless you generate more and more FTDs each month.

  21. #17
    Toni is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1973 View Post
    I wonder how you guys calculate player value per country? What formula do you use?
    Strider-> With netreferer you can filter by country and you have the Costumer Reference ID. So you know how many active players you have every day and you can see which Costumer ID generates the Net Revenue.

    When I talk about player value, I mean what I earn at the end of the day per player average. For example, if I have a refshare deal, I take all earnings from players of the last 12 months and divide it by the numbers of the players generating the earnings.

    For sure the lifetime value will increase over time. But what I noticed the last 12 month is that most players leave the casino very soon after a few deposits and the number of active players doesn't increase a lot anymore.

    So about 15 years ago I earned with one german player about 500€ average after 1-2 years. Now its like maybe 80-100€.

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    Toni is offline Public Member
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    ...and 80-100 only with a 40% deal not a standart 25% deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Strider-> With netreferer you can filter by country and you have the Costumer Reference ID. So you know how many active players you have every day and you can see which Costumer ID generates the Net Revenue.
    Ok, I see; I wasn't aware of this feature.

    If you want to invest the time, you should calculate the median deposit and median net revenue per year in order to filter out the highrollers which can screw your stats.

  25. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1973 View Post
    I wonder how you guys calculate player value per country? What formula do you use?

    Is it just net rev/active players?

    If yes, then the "problem" are the highrollers. So you should calculate median player value, not average player value. Because you can easily have 100 active players and one of them generates you 50% of net rev. But this data is normally not available.

    Personally, I'm more interested in the lifetime value of a FTD. And this value is increasing over time, unless you generate more and more FTDs each month.
    I am using (expected future income + past income) / players for value.
    For example at bet365 my account is closed, past income is known. Future income I take as infinite row where ( because they have a great retention rates, but people stop playing after all and they are losing players) the income in Y+1 = Y*0.8. So expected future income is something like Y2018*0.8 + Y2018*0.8^2 + Y2018*0.8^3 .... (The factor definitely used to be 0.9 before, but everything is now shaking)

    Highrollers are not a problem if you have a lot of players. Then the average price is what is interesting really. The smaller affiliate you are the more important for you are the median values I agree. But I would really NOT like to be dependent on median value of player. The average and median values differ a lot. I would not be surprised if it is more than 10x. Average player is the one who deposits for the bonus, loses it and goes away.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
    each one latched on to the ass of the previous
    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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