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  1. #1
    theCryptoJohn is offline Public Member
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    Default How to Handle Shaving with Casinos

    Hello all,
    I'm relatively new here but have been an affiliate for a while.

    I have seen some shady work done by casinos where I've sent good quality traffic - and there is 100% certainty that my players are being shaved

    As the community here is quite big - is there a way to address this and have some protection legally from such work?

    I'll give an example - if someone deposited 24 times in one day and I generated in the range of 2000 Euros, the next day the activity just stopped, doesn't seem reasonable right?

    My deal was to make a revenue share from that activity and they're removing that player - how can we work to regulate this so that casinos aren't doing this?

    I'm sure this is not the first topic of this nature but for me it is so I'd appreciate some constructive advice

    Thank You

  2. #2
    universal4's Avatar
    universal4 is online now Forum Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by theCryptoJohn View Post
    Hello all,
    I have seen some shady work done by casinos where I've sent good quality traffic - and there is 100% certainty that my players are being shaved
    Dump them or at least migrate a good bit or all of the traffic to other operators which you feel are not shaving etc.

    You said you were 100% certain but then you speculate based on a player's activity.

    If this is an operator that allows you to track by a specific player, after such a "specific" player deposits 24 times, that player can certainly stop playing, either permanently or temporarily. Using your example, they might have set themselves a limit of 2000 euro. That player might return, or they might not.

    Without naming the program it is difficult whether this could be an alarming pattern or not. Also helpful would be how many players this seems to happen with, and whether there is a pattern of these "specific" players returning after some time, and whether the pattern affect a LOT of players.

    Rick
    Universal4

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  4. #3
    theCryptoJohn is offline Public Member
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    Hi
    So the other point I did not mention is that the bill was approved as soon as the player stopped.

    I'm only avoiding naming the brand because I was asked by my partner to hold off and try to work out the situation rather than get to a point of legalities so please consider this post an inquiry rather than an accusation and I take back my 100% comment
    My question is a hypothetical one- what if I am c
    Pretty certain there is funny business going on?

    Also is it usually not ideal for the program to have an aff manager approve the deal first and then have traffic come in? Many affs may be eager to begin and negotiate in the meantime .

    Now as far as moving the player someone else - how can I do that if I don't have their email or contact info?

    Apologies for my ignorance I'm doing my best to learn and simply cannot yet send any PMs

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    Quote Originally Posted by theCryptoJohn View Post
    My question is a hypothetical one- what if I am c
    Pretty certain there is funny business going on?
    Dump them or at least migrate a good bit or all of the traffic to other operators which you feel are not shaving etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by theCryptoJohn View Post
    Now as far as moving the player someone else - how can I do that if I don't have their email or contact info?
    That was not suggested, and the only way you would be able to do that very effectively is if you knew the "specific" player in this case, and would convince them it is in their interest to stop playing where you originally recommended and to play elsewhere.

    This again sounds like a "single" player you are basing the decision on and not a pattern.

    Players can have a LOT of reasons to suddenly stop playing.

    Rick
    Universal4

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    Quote Originally Posted by theCryptoJohn View Post
    I'll give an example - if someone deposited 24 times in one day and I generated in the range of 2000 Euros, the next day the activity just stopped, doesn't seem reasonable right?
    In fact this seems very reasonable. If you played at lot at a site and kept on losing - would you continue to play there?
    It would be MAD for players to continue to lose 5,000 - 7,000 euros (based on your share of 2,000 euros).
    Whatever plans or dreams the player had for making money gambling are long gone. Why would you expect them to play?

    Players tend to hang around long term if they initially win a bit and then have some wins and some losses.
    To expect otherwise is to not really understand human behaviour.

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    MMM
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    Reoccurring topic here.

    First, it's important not to base your opinion just on one player behavior, or even one month.

    My attitude is that in most cases, besides those 5% where it clear that something is fishy, we cannot know if the program shaves or not.

    The easiest way I found for myself is just to trust the numbers: visits to $ (visits counted on my end and not what ap shows).

    If some program makes me $10 per visit and the other $1, and i mean long term and not just 1 month thing, that's the only "real" number we have.

    Is it possible that the first one shaves 50% and the second one doesn't? Of course. However, they make me 10 times per same traffic and that's what i go by.
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    casinobonusguy is offline Private Member
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    We have been affiliates for 17 years and for the past 10 years run test players ,sometimes under our accounts but other times under other affiliates we know .We are currently sitting on a couple bombs while we decide our next moves .It goes without saying removing them when you lose trust is common sense but if you have built up accounts making $xxx,xxx a year you still have to make sure you keep the quotas .Also it does no
    good to gossip in forums and fall on the sword with big business impacts so it is a issue most of us deal with privately ,sometimes with NDA and such. Unless you have a decent time line and 50+ players I think it is tough to be sure what you think you are seeing on a small sample .We have sent whales with $10000 of our cash to test some programs ,I am fortunate I have 2-3 close friends who we trust 100% and we share these costs among us. And some of us are gamblers so what better way to research than sign up under a friend and report the out come. I don't expect a small affiliate to have these option .that is why I recommend Affiliate Guard Dog as starting point when picking up new programs. I know a couple program managers reading this is likely going to be nervous knowing how deep some of us go when we are testing for things like removing tags and moving players around .I will give you guys this much we did big testing and these passed: Total Affiliates , Deck Media ,Affiliate Capital , Legend Affiliates , Casino Extreme , Casino Brango ,Slots Vendor ,Ace Revenue , Affiliance .Profitability like MMM is always going to generally give a pass to some programs but generally we are trying to test any program we rely on in a big way.

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  13. #8
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    It's not always that easy to tell. For sure, there are corrupt programs who will gladly steal your player base and simply won't give a cr@p. They'll even go as far as closing affiliate accounts and blaming it on some bogus reason or other. Players have also been known to come and go over the years, so that might also explain it. Rogue programs can also screw with you by messing up the statistics of the reports. Do yourself a huge favour and take Rick's advice. Start by pulling all of their affiliate marketing material from all of your sites and promote worthy casinos who at least have the sense of decency in them. There's plenty out there that you can sign up to who still continue to have moral standards.
    Last edited by Cash Bonus; 25 April 2022 at 1:15 am.

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    kozakor is offline Brand New Member
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    In fact, if you are sure of what you are saying, then it is better to tell the players about it. Sooner or later they will find out about it and go to another casino, but without you.
    Offer players the best alternative

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    newcustomeroffer is offline Public Member
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    Was going to start a new post but it kind of follows on from this so I'll keep it on topic here.

    We all see plenty of comments and accusations (mild or explicit) on here and other forums about shaving of affiliates in its various guises. Question I have, having never categorically proven that it’s happened, is how deep would the knowledge of it happening go within a program?

    What I mean is, should active players be de-tagged for instance, would it be common knowledge in the program that this happens and everyone just keeps a straight face in front of affiliates? Or is it a covert operation that only managers/accountants/techies know about?

    Could an inquisitive affiliate manager look at a player’s history and spot that they had been de-tagged from an affiliate but are still playing and query it with the powers that be? Do the likes of Income Access and Netrefer audit this kind of stuff to maintain its integrity?

    Not standing up for any program here, just curious as to whether we’re all just a little bit paranoid given that this industry relies so heavily on trust, or whether shaving can and really does happen in practice.
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    MMM
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    IMO, it happens on regular basis, in different way depending on the market.

    In grey it goes under radar in many different way, depends on software provider and such.
    In regulated markets it's not shaving per se but you get sometimes 70% less due to fees plus various terms like dropping you to 10% if you don't deliver xyz.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMM View Post
    In regulated markets it's not shaving per se but you get sometimes 70% less due to fees plus various terms like dropping you to 10% if you don't deliver xyz.
    I think that admin fees really are scam fees in disguise and it's predatory for any program to drop affiliates and players to 10%.

  19. #13
    MMM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cash Bonus View Post
    I think that admin fees really are scam fees in disguise and it's predatory for any program to drop affiliates and players to 10%.
    I think there is a difference between the two.

    Admin fees - problem they are hidden usually. If they were clearly stated, that wouldn't (for me) be an issue. I know the fees are x% - and my choice if to promote them or not. Totally fair as long as it's public.

    Dropping "lifetime" revshare is another story.
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  20. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMM View Post

    Dropping "lifetime" revshare is another story.
    I'm glad that we at least agree on this.

    There are a number of programs who pull this crap and I think that we affiliates are too lenient towards them and keep promoting them, when clearly, they don't deserve the exposure and recognition that they get.

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