30K Debt with 888 - (RESOLVED)

[Former Member 7]

Excuse after excuse, they simply don't want to pay. I've been through [*name removed*] (useless guy) and [*name removed*](also useless, but branded senior manager). The last thing I wanted to do was post in here, but now I am getting nothing but ignorance from them.

I sent them over 300 players in July on an extensive campaign which cost a pretty penny itself. They later decided that the players were too much desktop and not enough mobile, numbers were too high, then the latest that 'traffic came from a different source' (I have no other sources). Not a single string of truth is to their stories and they make up new excuses every time. We never agreed on mobile-only traffic and there was no player cap to our campaign. They even carried out a full fraud investigation on the players I sent, lo and behold none of them were fraudulent... Yet they still find new excuses.

Tempting to get a flight out there and personally cease 30K worth of their own sh*t... Not to mention banging their heads together.

[Sherlock]

was it a cpa?

[Former Member 7]

yeah $100 up to 30 players then $130 for 31+. If we're talking dollars then they owe me over 40K

[TheGooner]

888.con live up to their moniker.

[LegalBetAndy]

For that kind of money I would seriously consider taking legal action against them. Although you may struggle a bit if you do not have a signed contract and also you need to know EXACTLY who the contract is with and it is likely to be a subsidary. All in all though if defending the claim starts to cost the $200 an hour in legal fees, they may decide it is cheaper to settle with you out of court, or at least offer half.

If you check the corporate site, it should have details of their registered address in the UK, sending a letter there will scare them into taking you seriosuly: http://corporate.888.com

I am not sure if they answer the phone but you could try calling:
Brian Mattingley, Chairman +350 200 49800
Itai Pazner, Chief Executive Officer +350 200 49800

They have a communications agent Hudson Sandler, if you let them know what has happened and that you are about to report it to the UK press, the Gambling Commission as well as taking legal action, they may advise 888 to pay you:
888@hudsonsandler.com

Lastly, buy 1 share in the company, you can legally go to the annual AGM (unfortunately virtual at the moment) and they can not make you leave and you can ask the board questions yourself! (Even if you dont do that, from now on tell them you are going to, because they would not be able to stop you)

It is a lot of money, I would not just let it go. Either DO take them to court, or at the very least start threatening it, and give them a bad name not just here but consider the UK business press. On a slow news day, if you have documentary proof of what you are saying, they may well run a short story on it.

Good Luck

[Former Member 7]

I have been in touch with a solicitor, but your information will definitely help us speed the process up so thanks for that! I was hoping I wouldn’t have to fork out on legal fees, but I’ll be sure to add it to 888’s current tab

[Sherlock]

Is not 888 affiliates at some funny place like Gibraltar or Malta?
I am giving up millions without courts... and suing for 40k? Is not better to work smarter? Starting with a decent program and revenue share, because if the players are legit then 100-130 CPA is extremely low price. Affiliate marketing is about embracing the risks, people on CPA want to avoid risks and this risk aversion does not help at all.

Embrace the loss and move on. The scam is finally blended into affiliate business. I would like to hear success stories with suing someone or doing some settlements. I tried quite hard. Loss of time and mental energy. Going to shareholders meeting with one share and shouting there "justice, justice" and end up like a wreck, who maybe got his money before death, but missed the train where it goes in future? I do ot believe, this is how we can make real money. This is how lawyers make money.

[Malikbhai]

Casino, sports, forex and stock trading...(you name it); "vast majority" of companies that have their headquarters or ownership connection to Israel do this.

Even the ones that they pay, end up getting half or less than half. They also scam their own countrymen, who happen to run affiliate sites dominating Google.

Many Russian companies working in this sector scam their customers, but at least they pay their partners. Which is why Russian outlets get better conversions over Israeli setups.

Frankly, the only decent and honest ones that don't stab their customers and partners, are Americans running their circus from offshore islands.

[TheGooner]

I have been in touch with a solicitor, but your information will definitely help us speed the process up so thanks for that! I was hoping I wouldn’t have to fork out on legal fees, but I’ll be sure to add it to 888’s current tab

You sure about that?

The one case of "affiliate chasing commissions' I know about was a UK affiliate chasing a UK firm.
Here's a link to one of the threads:
https://www.gpwa.org/forum/onlinecas...ge-243825.html

Given you are in Cardiff, and the case above was in the UK, you would do well to find the thread and research the results.

A quick summary :
Like you - he was serious - and angry at a program changing the rules and a failure to pay - and it went to a local UK court.
Not surprisingly, a huge multi-national company is NOT frightened about a court appearance, and had legal representation.
I believe that the affiliate represented himself.

The case didn't take long due to lack of pre-court mediation and the decision was stayed ... until the company followed up by applying to have their legal costs covered in a following action and succeeded to the tune of about 12K which was half their legal bill.

The affiliate needed the help of the affiliate community to help pay his shock legal costs bill.

These companies are big, and will have an big expensive (and experienced) legal team to fight any action.
If you want to succeed then YOU will also need competent legal representation. This will be expensive even if you win.
Doubly so if you lose.

--------------------------------

I'm not saying that it's right that they can refuse to pay claiming fraud. I had a (much smaller) falling out with 888.con in 2006 - again over CPA payments. They also simply refused to pay - claiming fake customers. Back then they were paying 400-600 a player - and I suspect that they simply failed to make money on them.

All I'm saying is to just make sure that you're aware of the full cost and consequences of legal action.
Especially if the claim fails - as it seems that in the UK the defence can then press for legal costs (based on above case).

[promotiontailor]

send me a PM or Skype (haim.uac) with your username, I'll try to help you with that.
I'll explain on private

[LegalBetAndy]

That is a VERY good point by TheGooner, definitely take all of that into account.

You could try using the UK Small Claims court, which limits your potential expenses. It also limits the amount you can claim to £10,000 though. I am not sure it is relevant to you, but it is something else to consider.

[Former Member 14]

For the record... (just in case someone throw the red card) ... It isn't antisemitism IF what's been stated is a true account of events.

Casino, sports, forex and stock trading...(you name it); "vast majority" of companies that have their headquarters or ownership connection to Israel do this.

Hunt around the GPWA and AGD, you'll find a long list of Israeli based/owned companies who have stolen rightful earnings from affiliates over the years. They've also shafted players etc., too. The only Israeli based AM I ever trusted was Lloyd Apter. And, he himself got royally shafted by Spiral Solutions (Israel). Lloyd stood up against them stealing tagged players, and other crooked acts. Lloyd is no longer in the industry.

As far as taking legal action... we (old timers and seasoned affiliates) can try to advise why this is a bad decision. However, at the end of the day, it's your head on the block, not ours. When the law-suit goes South (and it likely will), don't say we didn't warn you.

Embrace the loss and move on.

[Strider1973]

Have you considered the possibilty that the traffic that has been sent to 888 actually was just more or less worhtless?

It makes me wonder because you agreed on such a low CPA deal. Was it a 3rd tier country? What traffic source did you use that the quality was so low? Because if you know your traffic quality is at least "ok" then RS would have been a better choice for you.

I also wonder if you ever asked your AM to check the quality of your players after sending a few dozen of them to 888, and before sending over 300? I think this is a step that always makes sense before sending a high number of players on a CPA deal.

This "discussion" you have here is one of the reasons why I almost always work on RS only. I know RS has gotten riskier in the past with so many programs closing markets or closing down altogether, but still...

[Former Member 14]

You could try using the UK Small Claims court, which limits your potential expenses. It also limits the amount you can claim to £10,000 though. I am not sure it is relevant to you, but it is something else to consider.

The lawsuit (court case) TheGooner referred to, used the UK "small claims" avenue. Where everything went 'pear shaped' for that affiliate, is due to the T&C's. In those was a clause which basically said: any and all disputes will only be settled via mediation channels (words to that affect).

The UK small claims magistrate, had no choice but to refer the matter for mediation. At which time legal representation was permitted.

The Aff program (irrespective of the fact they'd been proved to be lying, thieving bastards), their legal-council, nailed the affiliate's backside to the wall, all because of that T&C's clause. And the affiliate had to cough up 12K-GBP to these crooked thieves. Knowing the aff-program has robbed him of many 10's thousands. I can assure you, he wasn't a happy camper, having to pay these dodgy pr#cks more money.

Most, if not all aff agreements, the T&C's will state clauses pertaining to legal action.

Just walk away from the 40K, your never going to see it, and fighting a legal battle, ain't worth the cash loss, much less the stress and other BS.

[Former Member 7]

I appreciate everyone’s input, the main reason for this thread was to determine if it would be worth my time to take action. I strongly believe I have what I need here, they even confirmed the numbers via email following our agreement. With regards to the CPA being low, it was for UK sports traffic, so not actually that low.

[nwalker]

I appreciate everyone’s input, the main reason for this thread was to determine if it would be worth my time to take action. I strongly believe I have what I need here, they even confirmed the numbers via email following our agreement. With regards to the CPA being low, it was for UK sports traffic, so not actually that low.

Out of interest, how much money did you spend on the campaign? as that is what you are really out of pocket for. If it's a few hundred or even a few thousand take it on the chin and move on. If you can drive 300 new players to a casino in a month, you'll have no trouble recouping any losses. Spend you energy in finding a new and trustworthy partner to work with.

[wonderpunter]

Affs always want to assume the casino is ripping them off, but it never really makes sense and is nearly always CPA affiliates ( new members ) That cry foul, there is a huge amount of CPA fraud and many get caught. its usually never from a large organic site., obviously if the traffic is good they would want more, I have done CPA for years and never had problems.. are you a long time affiliate with them?

[UKaffiliates]

Please keep us updated on how you get on. It would be great to see an affiliate win with these scumbags!

[Carl Panepinto]

I have hard of affiliates not being paid by 888, but it was mostly due to their traffic!

[tufty]

Affs always want to assume the casino is ripping them off, but it never really makes sense and is nearly always CPA affiliates ( new members ) That cry foul, there is a huge amount of CPA fraud and many get caught. its usually never from a large organic site., obviously if the traffic is good they would want more, I have done CPA for years and never had problems.. are you a long time affiliate with them?

This may be true generally. It may sometimes apply in the case of 888 because fraud can work two ways, so a crook can also be conned. However the real problem with 888 is that they have and do rip off affiliates. It has been going on with them for almost decades now. Nobody should really be dealing with 888. They are firmly established on a long list of firms that are known to rip off affiliates, along with all the other firms with roots based in Israel. It is a small fish bowl packed full of affiliate programs and AMs who all know each other and it is completely rotten to the core and has been for 15+ years. There are no cultural angles here, this is purely fact.