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  1. #1
    syste82 is offline Public Member
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    Angry Players fraud and CPA payement implications

    Hi everybody,

    i usually promote casinos with revenue share, but i decided to try a CPA deal: during last month i promoted a casino brand with a deal based on CPA payement.

    Due to i expected almoust the double of number of players i usually do in the positions i assigned, i ask more imformation about new depositors to be counted on cpa.

    The casino has sent me a report about players fraud, following the strangest:

    1. didnít play at all since their 1st deposit
    2. asked to withdrawal right after the deposit. Didnít played at all
    3. player share Serial number of computer/IP


    I think 1 and 2 are similar and they are a casino conversion problem. This kind of problems should be included in a CPA deal. CPA means you pay me $ for a depositor player and then future player revenues will be assigned to the casino and not to me. So this kind of risk (player who not plays enough in the casino) should be a risk of who pay CPA and not of who promotes.

    As regards point 3, here's what they said to me:
    "As player shares Serial number of computer/IP - Means that they all played from the same network - same location of Internet - can be same room...."

    As regards this point i think i can write for hours supposing different cases.

    What do you think? Are they usual? Someone has seen something similar?

  2. #2
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    Hi Syste82,

    Welcome to the forum, you are in the right place to get some help!

    1/2, providing you actually are sending genuine players there way then in my opinion this should be the casinos problem. Unless of course they mention in there terms and conditions that unless a player doesn't meet the certain criteria they are referring to then the CPA in not valid.

    3, this is easily proved, have you asked them to provide you with a breakdown of the IP's used? If they are all from within the same location then in my opinion they are very right to draw back the CPA. As I said though, if as you say they are making this claim without good reason then IMO they have to provide the evidence to back it up or pay up.

  3. #3
    syste82 is offline Public Member
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    Thanks Dave for your prompt reply,

    even if is my unique experience with CPA, now i don't trust and beleive of this kind of deal (as affiliate).

    what do you mean "within the same location"?
    I mean...same location = same room or apartement, or same location like town?

    If different players with different names use the same computer to play, is it a fraud?
    Like mother, son, father (lol a gambler family) or roomates...

  4. #4
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    I'm not saying the affiliate is fraudulent, just giving my 2 cents on the information provided.

    1/2 - If a player deposits then withdraws without playing, essentially they haven't made a deposit. I can totally understand why they are not paying on that.. I would be hesitant to pay on it too unless the affiliate had some other serious depositors coming in and playing.. If not, I would suspect that the affiliate has set it up so that him or people he knows are depositing so he could get the CPA then withdrawing so there is no loss on their end. That scenario would be 100% fraud.

    3 - I wouldn't expect any IP addresses from the casino. This is confidential information and if the casino is ecogra certified they definitely cant give you that info.

    Just as a general note, a reason why casinos wont give out info like this and will tell you something in general, like "player share Serial number of computer/IP" is because if you are a fraudster (not saying you are, just giving some insight) they dont want to give you ways to get around their blocks..

    This is my 2 cents. As I said above, I'm not saying the affiliate is a fraudster, just giving my opinion on the information given.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renee View Post
    If a player deposits then withdraws without playing, essentially they haven't made a deposit.
    I agree if a player deposits then makes a withdraw straight away without even placing a wager then I would consider this to be fraud as well. What is the point in a player making a deposit then withdrawing it without betting.

    And for a player using the same computer, most casinos terms are one account per computer, household, IP ect ect. So that is not allowed unless approved by the casino itself.

    These sort of stipulation have to be in place. Or anyone could get a bunch of friends to deposit then withdraw and you make a killing!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WGA - Jamie View Post
    And for a player using the same computer, most casinos terms are one account per computer, household, IP ect ect. So that is not allowed unless approved by the casino itself.
    I wanted to put this in too but forgot.. Thanks for adding that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renee View Post
    I wanted to put this in too but forgot.. Thanks for adding that
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  8. #8
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    #1 Did not play enough.
    This should be covered in the minimum activity section of a CPA agreement. What is the minimum playthrough to qualify for the CPA?


    #2 Did not play at all.
    Again - it's that same as #1. Inexperienced casino programs might payout on deposit - but most programs do not so do these days. Usually no play means no CPA though. Maybe next month once they start playing you will be paid.

    Your stance that this is THE CASINOs issue is interesting - that's interesting in a fraudulent sort of way - as that raises a significant flag with me.

    Casinos are not some sort of affiliate charity - you only get paid for recruiting active and interested players - not people that just reach the minimum level.

    A high percentage of players in category #1 and #2, usually means some sort of collusion or incentive is going on behind the scenes to encourage people to deposit and generate a small amount of activity - when they are not really interesting in playing there.

    #3 player share Serial number of computer/IP
    IF it is only an Ip similarity, then this can be a problem with university set-ups, or occasionally with dial-up situations in eastern european countries.

    However, you should also be aware that most downloading software actually registers itself back on the mainframe - and does record the serial number of the registering machine back at the casino. As you can imagine this is very useful for detecting fraud. Player fraud. Hacker fraud, AND Affiliate fraud.

    So this might not be just an IP issue - it might also indicate that the EXACT SAME MACHINE is being used. It depends on what the affiliate manager has said and knows about the report.

    ----------------------------------

    Honestly, given issues with all three categories in the first month of activity, I think that there is something wrong with the player base being sent to the casino. I'll go out on a limb - based on similar situations that I've seen and read about and try a feat of forecasting or prophecy like Nostrodamus.

    I would not be surprised if :
    - all the players were from the same city
    - all the players live in either Bulgaria, or Romania
    - all the players know each other or at least visit the same forum

    They may be trying simply to take advantage of a generous player bonus completely unknown to the affiliate - or they may be working in coordination with the affiliate under an incentive plan.

    I think that the casino are correct to investigate further.

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  10. #9
    syste82 is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post
    Casinos are not some sort of affiliate charity
    That's right, as affiliates are not a sort of charity for casinos.

    A big problem for affiliates is that sometimes there is not transparency in reports, explanation and so on. It's true that affiliate behaviour could be fraudolent (as well casinos could be) , but how can i trust any general explanation without detailed reports?

    I ask more info to understand a strange trand: i received general justification
    I ask player reports: "no report, we respect player privacy"
    I ask some details about existing report to understand better (for example total player deposit): "we cannot show you these details or the system can't..."

    As you have already written, for these general explanation everybody could suppose different meaning, and at least how can i trust and verify if CPA counted to me is correct?

    For sure i'll give up this time (as most of the time i have problems), delete this casino from my lists (am a gentleman will never talk bad about this brand both in my site and in forum like GPWA), but sometimes i would love to be protected as affiliates.

  11. #10
    Anthony-Coral is offline Former Employee of Coral
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    Being vigilant to deliberate CPA fraud is a full time job for an affiliate programme and it is something we are now very focused on. I've read many threads here and on other forums where a disgruntled affiliate opens a thread and starts making accusations against a programme that then starts to attract criticism for the programme from other affiliates.

    This can be a really tough situation for AM's - I have had several occasions where the evidence I had was absolutely nailed-on, stone-cold CPA fraud but any reputable AM simply can't wade in and start throwing s**t back at an affiliate and we are severely limited in the amount of evidence we can reveal back to the forum. When you have a whole queue of other affiliates building up asking "Yeah - why haven't you paid this guy!?" it can be a real challenge.

    Equally, there have been plenty of occasions recorded of disreputable programmes shaving players and coming up with all kinds of unreasonable excuses for not paying up when players have been sent.

    For me it comes down to trust and reputations. An affiliate can be unlucky and pick up some fraud traffic and programmes should not be too quick to withhold all payment for all players in these cases.

    We have to stand or fall by our own reputations. Affiliates will discuss programmes that they can trust and I know as AM's we share conversations on who we've been burnt by in the past. As long as the Good Affiliates keep talking with the Good Programmes then we have a better chance of providing a united front against fraudulent activity whichever side of the fence it is on. The motivation for affiliates is that the more money I can save from fraud the more left in my budget to invest in the direction of affiliates I can trust.

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    Default Cpa

    I have seen a lot of affiliate complaints on the forum revolve around CPA campaigns where operators are refusing to pay for this and that reason. There have been so many threads on it here. In my opinion , how can an operator with no knowledge of an affiliates traffic offer a CPA deal. I dont think any legitimate operation would countenance a campaign like this .

    Would you Renee offer a CPA off the bat to a new affiliate.

    As to reasons 1,2 and 3 - you are taking the word of the affiliate program and in most instances there is not enough - what is the word - transparency . The affiliate program holds all the cards. I would hesitate to do business with most places purely on that basis.

    If you are in this business long term it seems to me that to not opt for the Revshare option , is to do yourself a disservice.

  13. #12
    syste82 is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by theGman View Post
    As to reasons 1,2 and 3 - you are taking the word of the affiliate program and in most instances there is not enough - what is the word - transparency.
    That's the point!

    I have been working since 2008, almoust 2 years.
    I work with more than 1 thousand of casino brands...so i don't know everything about this world, but as affiliate i can say "i understand more than something".

    Well, this experience is teaching me a lot...

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HodgeyBoy View Post
    Being vigilant to deliberate CPA fraud is a full time job for an affiliate programme and it is something we are now very focused on. I've read many threads here and on other forums where a disgruntled affiliate opens a thread and starts making accusations against a programme that then starts to attract criticism for the programme from other affiliates.

    This can be a really tough situation for AM's - I have had several occasions where the evidence I had was absolutely nailed-on, stone-cold CPA fraud but any reputable AM simply can't wade in and start throwing s**t back at an affiliate and we are severely limited in the amount of evidence we can reveal back to the forum. When you have a whole queue of other affiliates building up asking "Yeah - why haven't you paid this guy!?" it can be a real challenge.

    Equally, there have been plenty of occasions recorded of disreputable programmes shaving players and coming up with all kinds of unreasonable excuses for not paying up when players have been sent.

    For me it comes down to trust and reputations. An affiliate can be unlucky and pick up some fraud traffic and programmes should not be too quick to withhold all payment for all players in these cases.

    We have to stand or fall by our own reputations. Affiliates will discuss programmes that they can trust and I know as AM's we share conversations on who we've been burnt by in the past. As long as the Good Affiliates keep talking with the Good Programmes then we have a better chance of providing a united front against fraudulent activity whichever side of the fence it is on. The motivation for affiliates is that the more money I can save from fraud the more left in my budget to invest in the direction of affiliates I can trust.
    I would say the same thing, if I wasn't looking at the points the OP has made..

    New member comes in listing 3 things that the aff program is refusing to pay on, and they all just happen to be the most typical forms of aff fraud.

    Someone has their legs open because it's smelling mighty fishy in here..
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    Quote Originally Posted by theGman View Post

    Would you Renee offer a CPA off the bat to a new affiliate.
    We have a standard CPA where the affs can join it on signup, however it's extremely low. Anything above that requires a test and I will not go ahead with any CPA deals without seeing the type of traffic the affiliate can send first... there will be a few exceptions to this rule, however they are very hard to pass.

    So the answer to your question is HELL NO!
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    Code:
    I have been working since 2008, almoust 2 years.
    Have you worked with these guys for 2 years ? If so then i guess they would have some knowledge of your traffic and would then be in a position to make a CPA offer .

    If the offer just came out of the blue then i would be very suspicious of it. No legitimate company would offer CPAs or worthwhile CPAs in my opinion to somone off the bat.

    I also did not mean to imply that you did not know what you were doing - apologies if it came across like that I just meant to highlight the fact that there seem to be some shrewd operators out there who are taking advantage of the fact that people will send traffic to a CPA offer and then they can simply refuse to pay based on data that they control.

    I would stick to long standing programs at the GPWA and not be very tempted to offers out of the blue from people i dont know.

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    syste82 is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by theGman View Post
    Code:
    I have been working since 2008, almoust 2 years.
    Have you worked with these guys for 2 years ? If so then i guess they would have some knowledge of your traffic and would then be in a position to make a CPA offer.
    No, i mean in gambling world. I know it's no so long, but i can't say i pretty new of this world.

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    syste82 is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renee View Post
    New member comes in listing 3 things that the aff program is refusing to pay on, and they all just happen to be the most typical forms of aff fraud.
    Are you saying am acting as aff fraud ? Hope to misunderstand!
    How can i fraud am not saying any aff program name, and am not a new member, can say new active member.

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    cpa deals are a bit tricky and you should be the one to provide the terms in writing. Most times when I did this I would surly try my best to make it fair for both parties. One clause I had and they all liked it was that the player would deposit a min amount. Usually this would give me slightly above % of rev share. I always kept in mind that most players make you on average around $200 and I would guess this is still the same even though its been 6 years lol. Anyway, so I usually did a cpa deal between 150-350 a cpa with min deposits made of 300-1000 before the cpa was paid. However, I also asked for a little money up front with a min turnover time. Meaning that if they would agree to this that I would promise said number of conversions within a certain amount of time they were comfortable with. As well, I would also have an agreement of amount of time and max number of CPA's. I do this because if you cpa to long your really kind of shooting yourself in the foot regarding residual income because a few will become loyal players.
    However IMO donít do CPA deals and never ever take a cpa deal under the owners terms
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    Quote Originally Posted by syste82 View Post
    Are you saying am acting as aff fraud ? Hope to misunderstand!
    How can i fraud am not saying any aff program name, and am not a new member, can say new active member.
    I'm not saying you are, but with all the evidence you've given, it's very suspect...

    Can you post an update?
    Maybe you can get in touch with Steven so he can contact the affiliate program on your behalf. Then we will be able to see the whole story.

    Cheers
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    syste82 is offline Public Member
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    Yes am waiting more details they promosed me.

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