CWC Affiliates - Bad Stats and Conversions?

[peppy]

Greetings,

I am writing in regards to my statistics at CWC Affiliates (Club World and Club USA Casino) over the last month.

My stats:
Clicks: 728
Downloads: 121
Signups: 31
Deposits: 0.00

I tried to call them all of last night and the phone is conveniently busy. You tell me if this sounds normal or if CWC is incorporated in the "funny business".

If you ask me, I think Affiliate Guard Dog, Casino Miester and GPWA should start getting on the case of each and every casino. To me, the pattern seems to be only a select few "popular, big and power-holder" members get normal stats and plenty of the average "little" guys get stats that look like they should be getting lots of players and the casinos steal all the money and hide the deposits. All traffic is organic and targeted from Google, not some cheap auto-traffic from ads.

This is a recent trend I've noticed all over much of the industry. I've been doing this stuff for years and I know when stats are normal, when I'm getting shortchanged and what normal conversions are in the industry, not what affiliate companies claim and set to be "normal" or look normal.

[AmCan]

I tried to call them all of last night and the phone is conveniently busy.

You really expect an affiliate program to be staffed on a saturday night?

Before posting something titled "Cheats", "Scams", I'd suggest you answer some of these questions, in addition to your stats:

Do you have any stats from your site(s) that show your traffic converting better at another casino?

If so, any other RTG casinos converting better?

Is your traffic from the US, do you know if there is a general problem in processing deposits from US players?

I've been in the business 9 years, i get stats like that all the time, since day 1. I've also had wonderful stats that have provided me a nice income for most of that time. Depending on your site, the brand, the banners, the offers, etc. results vary from site to site, etc.

i've had great converting sites with light traffic and poor converting sites with loads of traffic. Unless you have other brands performing considerably better on the same site, i don't think those stats say much more than what you're doing isn't working.

I view the folks at CWC good friends, yet i've not converted much with the Club World brand, i have friends who convert them better and make money with CWC, the fact that i don't doesn't mean they're dishonest.

[arkyt]

OUCH - those are some pretty strong words without any sort of solid proof.

FWIW, I signed up a few months ago and already have gotten a payment, so I guess my traffic converts with them. I also agree with AMCan, well at least this far in our relationship anyway - Martyn seems to be a pretty good guy!

Clicks: 728
Downloads: 121
Signups: 31
Deposits: 0.00

25% signups:downloads isn't too shabby... I do find that a bit odd, but am highly curious where you are getting your traffic from and/or how you are promoting the casinos. (free games / bonuses etc)

If I sent 728 hits from my site(s) I have zero doubt that I would be making a really nice commission... knowing the quality of my traffic your stats make me wonder about yours.

[peppy]

When you get stats like that, you should begin to question the program. There is no way in hell that 121 people would download it, 31 people sign up and then do absolutely nothing. 31 people took the time to download the casino and then sign up for it. Then having them do absolutely nothing is very fishy to me.

Almost all of my traffic is from US. Any problems with processing deposits would be at the CWC end. Either way, 31 people signed up so there SHOULD be no problem when it comes to the deposits.

Since day 1, I've never had crap stats like this. Usually for every 10 or 20 downloads (every 3 to 5 signups), there would be a depositor. It's been like that for years until about the last 2 year when I would get 1000 downloads total and no deposits across a wide range of niche websites.

I don't trust the industry one bit. I think they are trying to "brainwash" us over a long period of time into thinking 0 depositors out of 121 downloads is "normal". Then getting "popular" members like you to believe this and preach it at the same time. Also, you read posts from other members about how "conversions are slowly dipping over the past few months" over a wide range of affiliate programs.

Let me ask you, is there any way to prove that affiliate programs aren't hiding the depositors and keeping the money to themselves? Is there any way to prove that the whole industry isn't colluding together and blaming bad conversions on "the economy" or "anti-gaming laws"? I don't think so and I think this industry is really turning into crap business. Some people need to wake up to this kind of possibility, although there is probably nothing they can do.

[giggles7p]

I beleive they give away a free chip to new players, that is what explains the downloads, no deposits and then disappear. Players that are not "real" gamblers take free chips and nothing else.

You will notice this at a lot of casinos that offer free chips,crap its expected as far as i am concerned.

[GCG]

Let me ask you, is there any way to prove that affiliate programs aren't hiding the depositors and keeping the money to themselves? Is there any way to prove that the whole industry isn't colluding together and blaming bad conversions on "the economy" or "anti-gaming laws"? I don't think so and I think this industry is really turning into crap business. Some people need to wake up to this kind of possibility, although there is probably nothing they can do.<!-- / message -->

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Do some audits yourself and let some friends deposit through new campaign ID's.

I see these stats all the time, my stats for July :

<TABLE class=datagridstyle id=gridTotalStats style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 rules=all border=1><TBODY><TR class=headerdatagridstyle vAlign=center align=middle nowrap="nowrap"><TD align=middle>Clicks</TD><TD align=middle>Downloads</TD><TD align=middle>Signups</TD><TD align=middle>Unique
Sessions
</TD><TD>Initial Deposits</TD><TD align=middle>Depositors</TD><TD align=middle>Deposits</TD><TD align=middle>Withdrawals</TD><TD align=middle>Gross Win</TD><TD align=middle>Credits</TD><TD align=middle>Chargebacks</TD><TD align=middle>Net Win</TD></TR><TR vAlign=center align=middle nowrap="nowrap"><TD align=middle>364</TD><TD align=middle>114</TD><TD align=middle>38</TD><TD align=middle>64</TD><TD>$30.00</TD><TD align=middle>1</TD><TD align=middle>$113.92</TD><TD align=middle>$0.00</TD><TD align=middle>$496.96</TD><TD align=middle>$411.80</TD><TD align=middle>$0.00</TD><TD align=middle>$85.16</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I have seen big drops all over the place since the visa/mastercard deposit problems.

E.g. : Do you have any rival casino with lots of deposits ?

I think CWC has built a good reputation amongst players/affiliates, IMO you just have bad luck, I am not doing great with them but you must remember there are tons of casinos players can play at and a signup does not mean he/she will deposit......after some google searches the player maybe found another casino....

Since there is no proof in the pudding but you have posted some hefty accusations, I would suggest you ask a mod to change the title to CWC stats & conversions...........


Good luck

[Nandakishore]

<TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" id=gridTotalStats class=datagridstyle border=1 rules=all cellSpacing=0><TBODY><TR class=headerdatagridstyle vAlign=center align=middle nowrap="nowrap"><TD align=middle>Clicks</TD><TD align=middle>Downloads</TD><TD align=middle>Signups</TD><TD align=middle>Unique
Sessions

</TD><TD>Initial Deposits</TD><TD align=middle>Depositors</TD><TD align=middle>Deposits</TD><TD align=middle>Withdrawals</TD><TD align=middle>Gross Win</TD><TD align=middle>Credits</TD><TD align=middle>Chargebacks</TD><TD align=middle>Net Win</TD></TR><TR vAlign=center align=middle nowrap="nowrap"><TD align=middle>179</TD><TD align=middle>83</TD><TD align=middle>6</TD><TD align=middle>6</TD><TD>$0.00</TD><TD align=middle>0</TD><TD align=middle>$300.00</TD><TD align=middle>($500.00)</TD><TD align=middle>$636.58</TD><TD align=middle>$137.23</TD><TD align=middle>$0.00</TD><TD align=middle>$499.35</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

This is one of my stats from CWC. I find them very reliable.

[Simmo!]

I tend to agree with giggles. Are bonuses, free chips, or tournaments central to your advertising strategy? Those figures suggest they are.

Also worth bearing in mind, if your Calls To Action are based around bonuses, are you just stating the amount or are you adding in info like WR and maximums etc? If you just state the amount (ie: $777 bonus) and no further info, you have raised player expectations to the highest level and they can only drop from there. You'll get referrals, but as the player discovers the restrictions the chances of a conversion drop immensely.

The trick is to try and refer a player with low expectations so they will be raised at the casino end. Adding restriction info and deposit info will help. For example, on a multi-deposit bonus, if you just state the first one, they will go there and see they get 2nd and 3rd ones. Just one small example of how they might get more then they thought. You have to find a balance that encourages click-thrus and provides an expectation somewhere below what the player will receive. And no, it's not easy LOL.

[AE-Martyn]

Thanks everyone for your kind words and replies to this post while I was off for the weekend.

First off I would like to say to peppy that we have no influence over these "popular affiliates" to say whether they say good things or bad things about us. The fact that this all happened over a weekend when I definitely wasn't able to spread my influencial powers should prove this.

We have been around since late 2004 so in that time, companies such as ours build up a reputation as most long time affiliates have dealt with us since then. This is why affilaites stand up for the good honest programs like ours, because they trust us and have reason to do so.

As I am looking at your account I see that you signed up in 2008 but only started to push us 3 months ago. Yes the mastercard/visa thing would have something to do with it, yes the global economic isnt great right now but just because things havent gone right for you doesnt mean that a program is cheating or scamming you!

Personally though, the best way to get this sorted out is to contact me direct. I saw you said you called over the weekend, unfortunately I dont work weekends but the reason for it being engaged is that we are having a bit of refurb going on which left my phone being unhooked. I do check emails from time to time at weekends but I don't see an email from you however.

I will get a full audit done on your players to find out what happened with them, see if they tried to deposit, if they did what happened to them and why they were not able to, I will admit that those stats are not great and I would also expect a little more. With you having 31 signups, this means that our retention team will already be on the case trying to convert these players into depositing players. Any with trouble depositing will be contacted to work out a fix or an alternative method. We dont just give up.

I must also say that we don't cheat our affiliates or players. You seem to suggest that we have been 'shaving' your stats and others to make headway into this industry. Trust me, if this had been the case then we would have been found out years ago!!!

There are a lot of affiliates out there that use their own tracking systems, if certain stats didnt match up then we would have been plastered all over forums throughout the internet, and not just a couple of posts about someone having a bad time of it....across the board.

Saying that the whole industry is colluding against you and us brainwashing players and affiliates is just as nuts, were you serious with this? If you don't trust the industry you are in or the people that you work with then I believe you need to consider another sector. Would you marry a girl/boy that you don't trust?

I don't mean to sound facetious here, but I, like many other affiliate managers take my job seriously and like to get to the bottom of things like this. Going to the forums with titles like this one and various things you say I believe is the wrong way to go about it in my opinion.

Try working with me and see if we can 1) Figure out any potential issue and 2) See how we can improve things long term.

I am, I feel, easily available to the affiliates that work with us and even those that don't. I can be contacted on the phone, email, msn and skype and all these details have been communicated on more than one occasion.

Let's try figure this out and I will drop you an email shortly to open the lines of communication.

Speak soon.

[FictionNet]

The only dodgy thing about Martyn is his weird smell. Other than that, he's on the level.

[peppy]

Currently, I am not centering my marketing on free bonuses or any bonuses for that matter.

The Visa/Mastercard problem does seem troubling though. So visitors will go to your casino and will be unable to deposit money then?

Either way, 728 Clicks, 121 downloads, 31 signups and absolutely 0 players are awful stats and conversions either way it's cut IMHO.

I will try getting in contact with you later regarding these stats. In the mean time I am looking into putting Bodog on my site, if they can get rid of their Trojan virus so I can even download the damn thing to take pictures... Just another company in the industry that is wearing away at my trust right out of the gate...

[TheGooner]

Peppy,

Are you saying that it's only CWC that does not work for you?
That you get good stats at other sites?
Or are you having conversion problems everywhere?

CWC are worth x,xxx to us each month - and perform within normal levels for our traffic.
Here are my stats so far this month (after 17 days).

<TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" id=gridTotalStats class=datagridstyle border=1 rules=all cellSpacing=0><TBODY><TR class=headerdatagridstyle vAlign=center align=middle nowrap="nowrap"><TD align=middle>Clicks</TD><TD align=middle>Downloads</TD><TD align=middle>Signups</TD><TD align=middle>Unique
Sessions

</TD><TD>Initial Deposits</TD><TD align=middle>Depositors</TD><TD align=middle>Deposits</TD><TD align=middle>Withdrawals</TD><TD align=middle>Gross Win</TD><TD align=middle>Credits</TD><TD align=middle>Chargebacks</TD><TD align=middle>Net Win</TD></TR><TR vAlign=center align=middle nowrap="nowrap"><TD align=middle>1428</TD><TD align=middle>428</TD><TD align=middle>107</TD><TD align=middle>51</TD><TD>$193.00</TD><TD align=middle>3</TD><TD align=middle>$3,833.09</TD><TD align=middle>$0.00</TD><TD align=middle>$6,161.72</TD><TD align=middle>$2,272.96</TD><TD align=middle>$0.00</TD><TD align=middle>$3,888.76</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


My experience with CWC is that the ratio of sign-ups to real depositors is low, but that the players that do deposit have good longevity and loyalty. I've found them a worthwhile group to partner with.

[GCG]

My experience with CWC is that the ratio of sign-ups to real depositors is low, but that the players that do deposit have good longevity and loyalty. I've found them a worthwhile group to partner with.

Those 3 players you have are they new or existing ?

Good numbers btw !

[TheGooner]

Hi GCG.

The CWC descriptions for their numbers are a bit confusing aren't they - I had to work through with Martyn to understand them when we initially joined.

Those numbers shows 3 NEW depositors, and their initial deposits totalled just $193.00

However, total deposits this month are at $3,833.09 and I'd estimate that they could be from between 15-25 active players this month.

The other stat is the UNIQUE SESSIONS which means that there has been a total of 51 active gambling sessions for cash.

So I usually usually look at :
- UNIQUE SESSIONS and DEPOSITS as a guide for overall playing depth
- DEPOSITORS to see conversion rates this month
- NET WIN for partnership value.

[AE-Martyn]

Hi Gooner, thanks for helping out here.

I believe, from peppy's first post that he is seeing this drop all round...

This is a recent trend I've noticed all over much of the industry.

[Puma]

Not to beat an old dog but I did find this a little funny

Saying that the whole industry is colluding against you and us brainwashing players and affiliates is just as nuts, were you serious with this? If you don't trust the industry you are in or the people that you work with then I believe you need to consider another sector. Would you marry a girl/boy that you don't trust?

I am not questioning my stats at this time but I can understand the original posters concern. I've been in this industry for quite some time and I dont think its unfair to question any program that an affiliate feels is short changing them. We know as a community here at gpwa that programs have done it many times before and lets be honest, RTG casinos use to be famous for it.

How many times have we seen a gpwa member post a concern about stats only to get a reply that there was an error in the programing of the affiliate program in question? Numerous.

Affiliates like the OP obviously is asking the same question many of us ask...Why are so many people visiting the casinos we promote but not signing up? Why are they not downloading and the obvious question...why are they not depositing?

Now I know most programs that I promote are trusted and I can say I do trust the club world group but lets not gang up here on an affiliate simply wondering what I and others have also wondered for many years.

[Nandakishore]

Affiliates like the OP obviously is asking the same question many of us ask...Why are so many people visiting the casinos we promote but not signing up? Why are they not downloading and the obvious question...why are they not depositing?

Very legitimate questions. A click means that the affiliate has done the basic job, bringing a potential player to the gambling site. The major task after that lies on the other site which depends at the beginning on the quality of presentation on the website. Is it attractive, informative, easy to handle or just lots blah blah blah ..., which is not seldom the case. Of course, the affiliate must also try to sell the product professionally, giving all important information in a nutshell and update all that regularly. But how often I find information on the websites hopelessly outdated, promotions which have expired shown prominently, bonus information not updated and some information presented (deliberately?) real foggy. How else would you interpret the flash info: "60 minutes to play with $1500 FREE! Take all your winnings." And then after reading two pages of Bonus Terms you find out that you can take out only $100 after depositing $50.

If I had used such tactics while I was running my software business, I would have been sued right away. But that is a different story. The gambling industry is not a regulated one. A bit of deception is part of practice in every industry, definitely not just a bit more in the gambling industry.

[casinosusa]

I been an affiliate for several years...and must admit i have never seen any other programs that every month for the past year and a half always ends up in a negative....something is really strange.
I was told in an email about a year a go that it was due to 2 large winners.... this has been a year ago....unless i been getting big winners every month since (which seems strange) something is extremely odd!
has any other affiliate experienced this with CWC?

[slotplayer]

My Favorite Martyn, are books cleared at the end of the year?

Sorry, there was an old American tv show called My Favorite Martian I watched as a kid.

xhttp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056775/