What are the best cold\hot wallets?

[Malikbhai]

Atomic wallet has its links to Charlie Shrem. A known convict who did time.

https://www.coindesk.com/charlie-shr...o-years-prison

Though he did go there for sh8t reasons.

Unless, it's a licensed bank, I'd personally never leave BTC at an exchange/hot sexy wallet, whatever the fancy name for it is.

Keep it cold, say like Electrum, and then move over to exchange or P2P for fiat.

[Mozzi]

Hey there, kinda new so I've been reading up a lot on cold and hot storage and it seems that they have a lot of vulnerabilities, especially hot ones. Any thought? Which one do you use and why?

[universal4]

Read this thread for suggestions

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

Hey there, kinda new so I've been reading up a lot on cold and hot storage and it seems that they have a lot of vulnerabilities, especially hot ones. Any thought? Which one do you use and why?

There are not hot and cold ones. There are just wallets. (The same wallet can be used as hot and cold.) The ones used as hot have indeed more vulnerabilities, because that is the reason why they are used as hot. Because there is a trade-off between usability and security.

You can like sports cars are fast drive on highways. But when driving through off-road mountains, you go with pick-up 4x4 low wheel drive. And you should know why.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And there is more. At least one more tradeoff.

Even the most safe cold wallet (paper wallet or so) is totally unsafe, when user does not know what he is doing or if he is not doing it exactly they way is must be done.

This is why some technically less safe wallets are in fact safer for most people. Because most people are dumb. Most people do not have dedicated computer. Most people do not know how to handle linux. Most people do not know how to produce randomness.

And most importantly: most people do not know how to securely store and/or produce a seed. And any wallet has a seed (the safest wallets are the seed itself). The seed is point of failure of all wallets. So even if you choose or you are advised to get the optimal wallet for you, you always must know how to handle, store and backup the seed and that is the same job for all kinds of wallets.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When I see people doing anything, like driving a car, picking an affiliate program, choosing a medication or choosing if they can go for a walk during Coronavirus etc. I see people behaving quite stupid in binary world. Either something is good or bad. Something is completely safe or unsafe. Society is encouraging such behaviour. Law is binary. Either something is allowed or it is forbidden. Either you are allowed to go out or not. You can drive 130 km/h on highway but not 131 km/h. Many talks here are about good and bad affiliates programs.

In normal reality this approach is sub-optimal but it is not usually deadly or not in short term. Behaviour following binary advices like good-bad is leading to average life, when person probably survives and just later in life - if enough self-critical - realises that life is not black and white. In business it is more problematic: examples. Recently from new players I am making majority of money from programs considered bad.

But with cryptography, just mildly sub-optimal decisions lead to fast "death". The path that is safe to walk is not just very narrow, but sometimes it is completely lost. There are no experts, who can tell you what is approximately the safe path. E.g. 130km/h on highway is more or less safe speed for all pensioners, cars old 40 years, occasional animals (yday at night I met a deer on fenced highway it was fun) etc. With cryptography the person itself must understand that life is just a game of probabilities. For example:

You can write down your seed in your normal computer as plain text marked as "seed". The probability that you will lose the coins in next 5 years is maybe 20%. (If you have no firewall it can be 35%. If you are connecting to unsafe wi-fis it can be 45%.)

But you can write it down to offline computer (never connected to internet). The the probability that the coins will be hacked goes from 20% to 0.1%. And most likely the thief will be your relatives (so you might recover them). If you choose a strong password, the probability of hack goes to 0.001% (someone must spy on you with camera or so while you input the password.), but, depending on your memory/age, the probability that you will forget the password in 5 years is maybe 10%. So what looks like 0.1% vs 0.001% is in fact 0.1% vs 10.001% in favor of less "safe" solution.

So this is it. To be able to use cryptography, you are never 100% safe. And you must start thinking in probability terms and you must estimate the probabilities by yourself.

[universal4]

Brought this thread back alive as I would not mind seeing some of the newer recommendations, along with those who still recommend some that have been around a long time like exodos and electrum.

Figured it might be helpful for newer users as well as those looking for additional wallets.

Rick
Universal4

[getby]

I think that the wallet by vexel is the best and the most reliable one. If you're interested, you can visit the site and find out more about the services the patform offers.

[Mitch1971]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to share an observation regarding the use of MetaMask with crypto casinos. By connecting your MetaMask wallet, you can purchase cryptocurrencies directly through integrated services using bank cards like Visa or Mastercard. This means that even if a casino doesn't offer direct cryptocurrency purchases on its platform, utilizing MetaMask allows you to acquire cryptocurrencies just as effectively.

Best regards,
Michel

[Sherlock]

You can purchase crypto with card by exchanges and many other wallets too. This is not the tiebreaker, whether the wallet is "the best". I would never recommend buying crypto directly from a wallet. Mainly for security reasons.

Metamask is a useful wallet though for hot wallet. It has to be connected with HW wallet and then it is as secure as HW wallet (not as much as properly secured SW wallet). The HW wallet is then signing the transactions and metamask works as a skin/frontend, which is much better than software of HW wallets and also provides much more options (mainly for web3).

[chaumi]

So I recognize that this will very likely be restating your post from 4 years ago, Sherlock. And apologies for that.

But...

You're saying (and 4 years later, is it the same situation?) that a properly secured/seeded soft wallet held on a laptop that's not normally connected online is better overall than a hw wallet?

Let's pretend that I bought a Bitbox and so far I've bottled setting it up/transferring from soft to hard. But now I've come into possession of a spare laptop, which could theoretically be used with minimal need to ever go online. Essentially that makes it a hard wallet, right. But it seems to me that the Bitbox would be easier to hide/store/protect (as long as secure setup was done).

Can you tell me what I am missing?

[Sherlock]

No need to apologise.

You're saying (and 4 years later, is it the same situation?) that a properly secured/seeded soft wallet held on a laptop that's not normally connected online is better overall than a hw wallet?

SW is not better overall. But it is technically more secure if the main condition - offline computer - is fulfilled. The devil in the detail is how securely you can set up the offline computer. Most people can not do it.

Another issue is how to store the seed. Seed is the same for HW and SW and the task is not trivial and is even more demanding than setting up an offline computer.

Let's pretend that I bought a Bitbox and so far I've bottled setting it up/transferring from soft to hard. But now I've come into possession of a spare laptop, which could theoretically be used with minimal need to ever go online. Essentially that makes it a hard wallet, right. But it seems to me that the Bitbox would be easier to hide/store/protect (as long as secure setup was done).

Can you tell me what I am missing?

You are missing the above: How you store the seed? If the seed is properly stored, then another point of failure is just compromising something during handling the wallet.

Properly done SW wallet is a SuperHardWallet. Much easier is to store flashdrive/DVD/harddisk/computer than HW wallet. Indeed data on the flash drive or DVD or HDD have to be encrypted. But then nobody knows what is on that medium. Anyone who sees HW wallet immediately knows what is on it.

Moreover you know what is on your HW wallet? Did you do reverse engineering of your device? Ofc no. Nobody does that. How you know that your device does not have a bug inside that is simply storing your seed while you are putting it there and not sending it somewhere? You never know it. It likely never happened, but it means a little.

Also if there is no spyware inside the HW wallet, there can be some bug exploited in future. There were already bugs in the past. https://www.ledger.com/blog/Unfixabl...tack-on-Trezor They are very likely some even now, just they were not discovered. YET!

Using your own open source wallet, your own open source encryption, is therefore way more secure. But way more demanding.

I repeat. I use HW wallet. As hot wallet. It is practical. I will survive to lose the funds on it. In fact, once the HW wallets will be hacked, I will make a lot of money on it, because lot of coins will go out of circulation to the hackers. Supply will drop. My coins in SW wallet will be more rare, just like after MtGox.

[Sherlock]

I just want to add. Those hw wallets claim, they are open source too. But HW is HW. inside can be anything. The higher the reward, the higher probability of offline man-in-the-middle attack. Just like Jews hijacked the pagers of Hezbollah.

[Sherlock]

speaking of the devil.... https://cointelegraph.com/news/ledge...ping-in-france

kidnapping bitcoiners and demanding ransom is more and more common and in HW wallet with a gun by the head is hard to not comply

but they just probably kidnapped HW wallet executive, what an irony

[chaumi]

.. https://cointelegraph.com/news/ledge...ping-in-france

I will be looking over my shoulder on the evening dog walk!

[Sherlock]

you should (the list is missing Tony from 5dimes that cost me a lot of BTC on my income from erased affiliate acct)

[Robert_Adams]

Honestly, it really depends on what you’re looking for. If you want convenience, a hot wallet like MetaMask, Trust Wallet, or Exodus is great. Super easy to use, but obviously more vulnerable since they’re connected to the internet.
If security is your priority, cold wallets like Ledger Nano X or Trezor are the way to go. A bit more effort to use daily, but much safer for long-term storage.

What are you guys using? I’m thinking about getting a Ledger but still on the fence.

[Sherlock]

What is being repeatedly stated by people is just a propaganda. The borderline between security and usability is elsewhere.

Metamask, Trustwallet, Electrum etc.. those software wallets allow you to secure the seed with HW wallet like Ledger. Simply connect the ledger to the SW wallet interface and that is fcucking it. If 100 people write 100 posts on forums the generic bs, how HW wallets are more secure and SW wallets are less secure but better interface, it still does not constitute reality.

As I nearly quit to say anything in public I started to work on article with one crypto journalist that I know personally, but after he started to repeat this generic bullshit, I quit. He asked why, I explained that I have no interest to repeat a bs. I explained to him again, what exactly is a difference between HW and SW wallet. His answer to me made logic but it was tragic as well.

He can not write anything else than what people expect to read. Well I have no argument against it. He is right. And not only in crypto topics.

But this is exactly where you have to make a choice. Either repeat the usual bullshit that all people repeat all over again and be in a slow or fast economic and mental decline (in crypto expect being parted from your money fast). Or start really investigating how things are.

The difference between HW and SW wallets is not too big. HW wallet is just one "minicomputer" between the computer and your brain that does not leave the seed/privatekeys in plain hackable form in your computer. Nothing more, nothing less. With HW wallet you can use any SW wallet and the SW wallet looks and behaves identically even when it is backed by HW wallet.

Using HW wallet makes something more secure but something more vulnerable.

And in any case (HW or SW) you must store the seed, which is the biggest problem. E.g. if you think oh... I will rather pay 50 USD for hw wallet than 200 USD for a second ****** offline computer, so I save 150 USD, then you have your thinking totally wrong.

To store the seed properly cost way, way more. If you think "ha, it cost me nothing to store a piece of paper in my drawer" (and maybe if you are supersmart "it cost me nothing to add one more to a drawer of my mother"), then honestly you should never touch any kind of wallet and leave the coins at some major crypto exchange.

[universal4]

Thanks Sherlock, I know it is a bit frustrating, but we ALL truly do appreciate you answering posts here and understand sometimes it seems like you are repeating yourself.

But the GPWA community is better for having the knowledge, even if we have to hear it numerous times for it to sink in LOL.

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

Thanks. Yes, it is frustrating if a thread starts with something that honestly is a wrong assumption, then some debate goes on and then the thread ends with a dumb post of a rookie with this only one post, that totally ignores what was written.

It is like the other posts "Entain - is it good?" etc.

Humanity should somehow progress and the progress is trial and error. Learning from mistakes, mine or mistakes of other people. Sharing some info, which means receiving and participating.

I have no idea which wallet is the best or which one is good. This question itself makes no sense. There are no good wallets and all crypto has this flaw, because crypto security, that does not need a 3rd party is both a blessing and the horror. Until people change, the crypto will be only for few people. For those who take security really seriously, because having a wallet well secured is like driving a car. It is not enough to go to a curve with 99% security or 99.9% security. One needs something between 99.999 to 99.99999% security to drive carefully but still fast enough. Same with crypto.

But can people, who do not even bother to read some basic thoughts about crypto, secure their wallets? I am sure that no, they can not.

So yes, I am frustrated by lack of communication between people generally. But in crypto there is more. People who can not communicate and people who can not evaluate risks vs rewards really should not touch crypto directly.

Which is a problem for crypto itself, because most people can not handle even their income/spendings. So this well belongs to the crypto thread. The biggest enemy of crypto are not governments but stupidity and rigidity of people.

1.5 decade after Satoshi people had to understand crypto more, but what can be seen is that despite to boom of crypto, people are just crypto-dumber. It is a systemic risk and R/R ratio of crypto investment is going down. Still ok, because of onset of big wars, but not so good considering the high price of crypto.

[Sherlock]

Moreover, it was not said, but it hopefully should be obvious: SW wallet is open source project usually without monetization; unlike HW projects, which are commercial products with marketing. Nothing wrong with any of those two approaches.

But SW wallets do not have marketing. There are people paid for saying SW wallets are better than HW wallets. But there are a lot of people paid HW wallets are better than SW wallets. So this info field will be always distorted. We people read, what said other people on social networks, and on social networks is said about HW wallets something, that was paid by HW wallet producers. Simple as that.

No, even HW producers will not be happy if their users lose coins. But they for sur must play the marketing in a way where some vulnerability is omitted while another one is highlighted.

So far the white elephant is in the room. Seed can be stored either wrongly or very expensively. Btw. how seeds/cold wallets of exchanges, where are now maybe trillions, nobody is asking for! Is multisig wallet/seed enough if more than one person dies? And from which point is multisig dangerous, because dishonest parties can overcome the honest one?

So please do not just repeat it blindly, DYOR.

[mmoretti]

If you’re trading or using DeFi daily, a hot wallet like MetaMask or Trust Wallet is the way to go for quick access. But if security is your top priority, a cold wallet like Ledger or Trezor keeps your crypto safe from hacks by storing it offline.