5dimes - be careful

[wonderpunter]

Wishful thinking. You need to be referring the man in the street (if you want any numbers at all) and the man in the street will not embrace bitcoin as standard yet. When my mum is using it then it will be standard - at the moment she has never heard of it.

There was a time when these same players preferred the street, but they all jumped hoops to go online, it's just one small step.. just need to educate them about the process.. 5Dimes is king for intermediate and pro players online.. hoops will be jumped to stick with them, especially as a lot of US bookies are going this route.

[justbookies]

There was a time when these same players preferred the street, but they all jumped hoops to go online, it's just one small step.. just need to educate them about the process.. 5Dimes is king for intermediate and pro players online.. hoops will be jumped to stick with them, especially as a lot of US bookies are going this route.

I agree and I am invested. I also think it doesn't even have to become mainstream to be worth a lot more than it is right now. However, while it is tempting to believe it is the cure to all the payment evils of the US market, it is a long way from that right now. However much sense it makes to us, without adoption from the layman it wont work in a meaningful way. When that day comes, which I hope it does sooner rather than later, you'll find me on my large private island (as opposed to the small public one I currently reside in).

[Sherlock]

Well, I wrote it maybe 100x and maybe 5x on this forum:
yes, even average justbookie's referred player has to be using it to have it some sense (maybe not his mother unless she is gambler)
but it does not mean that the person that is using bitcoins has to have knowledge about how to handle bitcoins...

and to take it to extreme, it is not necessary and possible for them to know that the bitcoin is being used for their transactions; the transactions have to be just processed by bitcoins by some smart middlemen

but even the softer way, where the gambler just knows that he is using bitcoin as a token (and does not know what is behind), it is something that already works for ages in casinos, where you buy chips or in pachinko slots where you buy balls; to handle bitcoins with online wallets you do not to have a knowledge how it works: you just send money to exchange place -> get bitcoins=tokens -> you gamble with tokens-> if you win you cash tokens... something very familiar to gamblers

it is only the spirit of bitcoin (something geeky, something for hackers, something for junkies) that scares people away currently (even when bitcoin is also fro geeks, for IT criminals and for junkies); I remember when I talked with Bettinpartners a while back and they kindly refused bitcoin for those reasons I think... I kind of appreciate the careful people that do not buy every new IT nonsense, because whole Bitcoin project looks like some really crazy startup, but what is happening now is that even those careful people start to recognize the btc potencial... and exactly that is the most promising issue about bitcoin for me, like that Bovada changed their approach

[universal4]

I know that this is an unpopular idea, but I personally think that it will end up causing MORE issues then solving them.

Time will tell, but the US regulators as well as other various government agencies are against bitcoin more then they were Neteller/Skrill/Payspark/Passport/Speedcard/ewalletexpress....more

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

I do not think it is true (yet). I think the Silicon Valley's money is pushing bitcoin harder to formal regulation and approval and that is the wave where the gambling should step in, while there it has lower costs and everybody can buy the btc easily without problems.

In future this will be a war, I agree, but there will be many countersteps by btc community. Even today it is possible to have anonymous USD/EUR prepaid cards loaded by bitcoins. It will be impossible to trace them for US if they will be issued out of US jurisdictions.

Illegal US gambling will be always in war with casinos and affiliates, nothing will be 100% smooth, but bitcoin is a new vital weapon. Nothing more, nothing less. But I believe this weapon can make US the biggest market. Because there will be no taxes and everything in the end will be much more smooth. Even now US bookies have the best affiliates I know, because they operate in real market, not some overregulated socialistic project. I can feel I talk with people with brains when it comes to US and not to some 9to5 robots. (Yes there are exceptions elsewhere, but way too few).

[universal4]

The US government has already declared that bitcoin is a commodity and the US Government likes to change things really fast and efficiently, so they will be real quick to allow bitcoin to go mainstream and be treated as a currency....NOT

Bitcoin as a commodity makes it's use a little more messy in the US immediately due to capital gains etc.

In my opinion I do not think silicon valley will have any pull in this fight whatsoever.

At some point US banks and other TRACEABLE financial institutions MUST be involved in order for US dollars to be loaded onto the cards, and I do think they will looking at ways to combat this, especially where it comes to players funds.

Bitcoin (blockchain technology) could very well become a viable technology to be integrated into virtual payment systems and ewallets, (once they conquer a few technical hurdles) but I think bitcoin itself will always be grey/black market, and until bitcoin finds a way to penetrate into more mainstream markets it will likely stay stigmatized as a payment system for illegal markets.

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

It is not US government, but CFTC, who declared btc as commodity (because they want to justify their own meaning). It does not US Treasury to declare btc as currency (because they want to justify their own meaning). And I think another state agency declared it digital asset or something like that. And in the end nobody gives a f*** exactly like in Russia, where they rather made it unlawful, but people keep using that. Unless the holder of btc admits that he is an owner, he can never be proven as bitcoin owner and even that is problematic, because bitcoin owner is de facto the one that knows the private key. That is the challenge that sharing economy brings to the law and it makes usual logic about possesion invalid.

What will be happening in future is one thing. What is reality now is:
1. anybody in the US can easily buy Bitcoins
2. anybody can transfer it to bookies
3. anybody can mix them easily if needed to sweep the tracks (which is what I heard maybe demanded only by big US aimed ewallets by now, but I guess it is enough to withdraw to non US based ewallet and then to your own that deals with the US)
4. anybody can convert the btc back to USD

Points 1.-4. are all legal until now and it does not change anytime soon, and if something changes, there are easy roundabouts. Even if "bitcoin" is made illegal, which I really do not know how "bitcoin" should be defined, then another blockchain currency will immediately be used as Bitcoin proxy, unless they make illegal all blckchain digital currencies, which is also hardly imaginable and we are really not even close to that.

This means that IMO Bitcoin has hopefully very nice few US gambling years ahead. As it were nice years the Amazon cards and as it was Neteller before 2006 and befire that just cc transactions to offshore. Gambling in the US will always exist, because there is a demand. It is 21st century, so it will exist as online version, no mater what regulation says. From the official perspective it might seem that we see a sunset of illegal online betting in the US. From my opinion, I think now the boom can easily come and what we saw in the last decade was a bottom. Because the cryptocurrencies are a real gamechanger, once bookies will see and use the potencial. It is no more smuggling some gift cards and creative accounting gambling income as selling flowers or real estate development. And yet, because the US press against illegal gambling will be only bigger and bigger, it is the supporting factor for Bitcoin using. It is hard to imagine that Bovada and Bodog do this just for fun. So the funny and ironic thing is that it is the regulations and restrictions of states that helped to grow to Bitcoin, even when the states hate the Bitcoin. And the more there will be the regulation, the more there will be support of the free market to the Bitcoin. For me it seems that the war against Bitcoin is like to trying to hit a black hole with a baseball bat. It only makes the blackhole bigger. But we are not at the war against Bitcoin yet at the USA.

I agree with you that intelligent states must hate Bitcoins and all other cryptos as well. The state monopoly for issuing of money is big part of state's power. It would be a stupid and weak state that would give up on that. I may sound like somebody who loves Bitcoin. I do that only from personal perspective. Because it made me wealthy and because I have there money that nobody can steal from me.

From overall perspective I think that the unequal society, that might be produced by the new inventions like Bitcoin, will be hard to live in. (And I thing I am relatively tough guy used to live in weird places and used to see weird things, because 3 days ago I was just assaulted by guys with machete at one slum while making a shortcut. After they stole my mobile phone, I got pissed off and chased them and persuaded them to give me back my valuable simcard. But living in cryptocurrency economy will be probably tougher than to deal with some testosteron driven analafbetic delinquent kids speaking only some Guarani dialects.)

The Bitcoin is not about our preferences, as money making is not about what we like or not, but what the markets like. And it is the market that just caused that the biggest and the most successfull US bookies went into Bitcoin era. Since the bookies are the best bettors usually hiiting coinflips with +110 or +120 odds, I would say the best bettors around just bet on the Bitcoin. So it is no more a speculation, if btc is good or not for US gambling, because btc right now became a reality of the US gambling. It is like if your cat dies or you have a new gf or you walk through former industrial quarter where you lived as a child that was rebuilt by developers... One has the habit to not accept reality for a while, but then it becomes inevitable because you really have nobody to pet in case #1, you must buy expensive gifts in case #2 or you hit with your head by texting into an unexpected building in case #3.

[universal4]

I know the wiki definition of the cftc is

The U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission is an independent agency of the US government created in 1974, that regulates futures and option markets.

But honestly how many agencies of the US Government are truly independent?

I don't really think anyone would try and make all blockchain technology illegal but since bitcoins ARE considered a commodity for taxes it makes it difficult for US Residents period.

I think the bitcoin creators biggest mistakes were trying to push bitcoin as a fiat replacement instead of creating the payment system the "technology" will likely become some day.

I do not see some of the conspiracy theories or the stigma associated with it's use waning in the short term. And like someone recently said, until the average joe and everyone's grandmother is using it this stigma will continue.

Rick
Universal4

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

No. Of course CFTC is fully dependant on government/state. As central banks are also part of the state policy, no matter how many times they declare the independency. That is not what I though. I thought exactly what you say: one state institution declared bitcoin as currency, second as commodity. For EU it is a currency, but some states wanted to impose VAT. Some US judge has just said btc is a currency http://www.coindesk.com/bankruptcy-j...erty-currency/ .

What does it mean? Nobody knows and it is irrelevant for gambling to be short and for Bitcoin itself as well, because at least for now Bitcoin main real economic surplus in active using is only in black and grey parts of economy (like gambling or drug sales), where law does not matter that much (and I am saying that as mostly "clean" btc user that uses btc to move money abroad just to avoid high fees and also to top up my phone, because I can not do it otherwise online).

Bitcoin creators do not exist. It was one guy who did it and he does not give a s*** about PR. It was just a game until it got real because of darkmarkets, where the theoretical joke became a game of millions, because junkies needed to pay for their Jack Herrer. There was no plan. Things just happened, because the market just found out that bitcoin is something needed. It does not matter what whoever wanted to do with bitcoins. Bitcoin made something incredible. Grew from zero wihout any push or intention to make money with it in the beginning. It is the irony that right that noncommerciality proved the value and capacity to make money with bitcoins... as any other genuine or sincere things swallowed by capitalism.

There were early adopters from far left and far right. There were technical people who wanted to create the new system as you say and there were fundamentalist people (both pro-market libertarians hand in hand with communists) that wanted to push fiat out. But it is irrelevant, because what is happening is not some political or PR action of those groups. What is happening is that some tool was created and it is now used by hardcore capitalists like drug dealers and illegal gambling companies to move money around with higher efectivity than when other currency systems are being used.

And the way for them is being still opened by people who pretend or really are naive visionaries. Together with states, who can not ban bitcoin, because law did not count with something like distributed ledger or in broader approach: the law we have is not ready for sharing economy or handling intellectual property rights in digital economy, where the common denominator with bitcoin is "blurred ownership" .

I really do not know why the people who have some animosity against bitcoin still repeat the nonsense about average joe and stigma of bitcoin, when I wrote numerous times that you can pay using bitcoins even now without even knowing that bitcoin was being used? I guess it is some kind wishful thinking, where the people who repeat their story, trying to keep their old reality intact. I know this is not a discussion: you will keep telling what you think no matter what I say. That is the sad game of internet discussions. But I would really appreciate why you think that bitcoin transactions like this clickable picture that I have posted here before

will not work for average joe because of the stigma? Where is the stigma with CC terminals and mobile phones? I know that I will probably not get the response, but at least I tried again.

[universal4]

The article you linked to clearly states that the bankruptcy judge stated that bitcoin was "property" NOT a currency.

During a hearing on 19th February, US Bankruptcy Judge Dennis Montali sided with the trustee, declaring that bitcoin is an "intangible personal property" rather than a currency.

I do agree that the debate is not over, but as more judges make rulings, more cases will quote previous rulings.

What does it mean? Nobody knows and it is irrelevant for gambling to be short and for Bitcoin itself as well,

It is NOT irrelevant for any person residing in the US who has money sitting in or has made a capital gain on Bitcoin.

I really do not know why the people who have some animosity against bitcoin still repeat the nonsense about average joe and stigma of bitcoin,

I really do not know why people fail to understand that people DO have differences of opinion, and to berate others based on an opinion is counter-productive.

The entire group that surrounded and promoted (and still promote to a degree) in all the dark markets added to the stigma that exists around bitcoin as well as the technology.

In my opinion, the technology itself has many many advantages, and when the public banking systems finally get a handful of the flaws worked out I do think the technology of the blockchain and even the public ledger to a degree will be implemented to current banking systems over time.

Also, paying by mobile phones also carries a bit of a stigma, and although mobile forms of payment are on the upswing, more and more people are finding it can be dangerous to their financial health which may or may not add to that stigma. I do not think the mobile payment apps and technology have matured quite enough to become fully mainstream, and until such time as the security becomes more robust I see growth but not what it could be.

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

Another week, another payout technically OK.

Either way the bitcoin friendly bookies have to do something with the withdrawal procedures. They should go to btc exchanges at least. Confirming wallet via email along with account and password, it is just crazy. I remember that saying password to CS over email or chat was normal at many US bookies like Cris, it was ridiculous many years ago. But today when ANYBODY can withdraw to ANY bitcoin address just knowing acct ID and password, it is just matter of time when some stolen money will be here. And many people will bitch how Bitcoin is unsecure. "Hacker" or just rogue employee, it does not matter. There is no way how to have an btc address connected to a name of bettor/affiliate.

[justbookies]

Confirming wallet via email along with account and password, it is just crazy.

Yes this procedure is totally nuts. It's like nothing has changed with them since 1998 (though I ran a bookmaker in 1998 and we weren't that bad). For a firm with so much to offer, they have some huge blind spots.

[Sherlock]

The article you linked to clearly states that the bankruptcy judge stated that bitcoin was "property" NOT a currency.


I do agree that the debate is not over, but as more judges make rulings, more cases will quote previous rulings.



It is NOT irrelevant for any person residing in the US who has money sitting in or has made a capital gain on Bitcoin.



I really do not know why people fail to understand that people DO have differences of opinion, and to berate others based on an opinion is counter-productive.

The entire group that surrounded and promoted (and still promote to a degree) in all the dark markets added to the stigma that exists around bitcoin as well as the technology.

In my opinion, the technology itself has many many advantages, and when the public banking systems finally get a handful of the flaws worked out I do think the technology of the blockchain and even the public ledger to a degree will be implemented to current banking systems over time.

Also, paying by mobile phones also carries a bit of a stigma, and although mobile forms of payment are on the upswing, more and more people are finding it can be dangerous to their financial health which may or may not add to that stigma. I do not think the mobile payment apps and technology have matured quite enough to become fully mainstream, and until such time as the security becomes more robust I see growth but not what it could be.

Rick
Universal4

It is not that some group promoted btc on darkmarkets. Darkmarkets are the only pure unregulated capitalism. Without taxes, without regulations. Darkmarkets have deliberately chosen bitcoins as currency. It was their only option, because of all the AML procedures and of course, because the goods traded there are illegal. Hipster bitcoiners, who have nothing else to do than to sit at the internet and shout how great is bitcoin are totaly different kind of people who actually own and use most of the bitcoins.

The shadow from bitcoin for sure will not disappear now, as even illegal gambling (from official point of view will jump on the bandwagon). I do not know why everybody wants the shadow to get out. Bitcoin is dark side of capitalism, and it always will be. As tax heavens are dark side of capitalism. Now there is battle against tax paradises, so the unreagulated business will move to other areas like Bitcoin. The last thing that will bother bitcoin owners is to pay taxes from capital gains Bitcoin is gaining value of course also because you are out of the tax system and it does not matter how law will define the bitcoin. "Illegal" online US gambling was never about paying taxes and it was never listening to regulations. And it will stay so. The more anybody will try to regulate that, the more it will be de facto deregulated.

Of course in the end (when btc will be much more used and with higher price) Bitcoin will be hated by states much more than now, but that is all they can do with that. It is not possible to really ban bitcoin transactions, because owners of wallets can be anonymous if it is done properly. They can go as low as Cuba and other totalitarian regimes and restrict the exchange, but there will be always money in and money out channels. Even now most banks do not want to have anything in common with bitcoins and money flow in and out. If you do not like mobile phones, there are anonymous prepaid cards, which any drug dealer or gambling affiliate or John Doe can use.

Technology IMO is not the most exciting thing about Bitcoin. It is obvious there are much better cryptocurrencies and much better blockchains than bitcoin will be created in future. But Bitcoin is the storage of value. All other currencies take it as benchmark. Any other cryptocurrency (from which most will certainly fell down) denominated in btc, just adds credibility and value to bitcoin.

This is a very good article (not related exactly to the talk here): http://www.coindesk.com/daniel-maste...bitcoin-price/

[universal4]

Unless bitcoin loses the stigma of "darkmarkets" it is not ready for Joe Average

They have had YEARS to change that stigma, but instead of moving toward that, they seem to enjoy to keep promoting, "but the governments can't tax it", "but it works so well to gamble with, or buy drugs with" and other statements with a similar message.

It is obvious there are much better cryptocurrencies and much better blockchains than bitcoin will be created in future.

I do agree with this, and once this is created and the REAL banks integrate the technology, bitcoin, as well as the hundreds of other coins, will no longer be needed or wanted by the average person.

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

banks will never integrate blockchains. Not the overregulated banks we see. If they do, then just as technical tool and it will be not important. Bitcoin is indeed interesting only because it is out of banking system. Bitcoin is needed for gambling or drugs. I am just saying that without joy or being disgusted. If we stay just by gambling: US customers want it, but they can not move money to casinos. Bitcoin allows that. That is it. That is the reason why Bitcoin has value. Nothing else. John Doe Gambler will soon realize that he will either step into Bitcoin (maybe even without knowing how to handle it) or that he is no more online gambler. And since gambling is addiction comparable to drugs, he will probably no other choice. As I have no other choice when I want to buy my yearly gram of XTC. There are no more nets of friends who know friends who deal drugs. I just go to Agora, pay with btc and get my package.

[Sherlock]

Yes this procedure is totally nuts. It's like nothing has changed with them since 1998 (though I ran a bookmaker in 1998 and we weren't that bad). For a firm with so much to offer, they have some huge blind spots.

I think already someone hacked them. Because Now they wanted double confirmation and also copy of ID. Which is also nuts, because if you send it over email, then the hacker or employee with the access to the email, has everything 5dimes need to pay to random btc wallet.

It is just amazing how they can run the biz. Btw. I was looking at stats of deposits and they are even growing! So 5dimes are working incredibly well even with of all the security holes. I bet they will make it to NFL easily.

[universal4]

If they do, then just as technical tool and it will be not important.

I agree that IS the part that banks and credit card processors will want to use, however, I personally think that is the most important part.

The fact that the "darkmarket" is still the driving force behind bitcoin, will most likely be the downfall of either bitcoin in the end.

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

Do you understand that part of the "darkmarket" economy is also 5dimes? (I would completely discard the part that blockchain technology might sometimes be part of the banking infrastructure. It certainly might happen, but I think we agree only lunatics might hope it will be a Bitcoin blockchain. It simply will.not. The code is to heavy, it has to shadow, there is no need etc etc. I believe the Bitcoin price is not driven by some chance that Bitcoin will be adopted by banks. It is more about the fact that average John Doe goes into black illegal area, because he is pushed there from grey area, where governments tolerated a lot of things. Bitcoin is a daughter of restrictive paternalistic policy. I do not think average Joe Doe in 20 years will be the good citizen from after WWII era. He will maybe do the same things as before, but he will be a criminal. Therefore will have much less problem with "darkness". This process I believe already started.)

[universal4]

I agree that it will most likely NEVER be bitcoin technology, but the banking sector has already stated they like portions of the underlying technology, as well as the potential for a distributed ledger and the possibility of a reduced overhead for transactions.

I may be incorrect, but I think the average John Doe will resist being pushed into the the black illegal area, even if he is comfortable in what is considered grey area now.

I also think that 5 dimes switching to a bitcoin only policy will cause them to lose marketshare rather than gain it over the long term.

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

Ok, so to make it clear: blockchain technology might be interesting by itself - or may not be. Like torrents as another distributed technology might seem promising, but so far it is being used mostly for illegal downloads. I do not think right now the technology itself is interesting in official ovetaxed, boring and dying economy. You think it is. Fine. But the debates here and now are about Bitcoin and not blockchain. Bitcoin that now has 7 billion marketcap and apparently is being used by more and more by almost only illegal businesses, like US bookies.

Lets forget about assumptions, if it is possible. Even bookies that did not want to have anything in common, are using Bitcoins now. Price is again rising. It is the only way to cash out wins and commissions at some of the best US bookies. Those are facts. Not assumptions. It is not some blah blah bitcoiner talk. Successful people like Calvin Ayre - successful, not with some startup monopoly money, but with the hard cash, bet on btc.

Those are just few strong arguments for Bitcoin (not for blockchain generally, but for Bitcoin, that is the only cryptocurrency that proved to hold value over the time, which is something that people demand from quasi-money). If we aim just for simplicity to analyse just US market, what are Bitcoin gambling alternatives?

- online gambling will be legalised; right now it is a dead model at least for affiliates who have the traffic
- online gambling will be supressed; yes, and people will go back to the 18th century...
- online gambling will find another way how to transfer funds than Bitcoins or fiat money that are harder and harder to be transferred

The only alternative to Bitcoin payments in the US, if we forsee the future, is some another way of payment. It may be decentralised as Bitcoin (and Bitcoin is the only decentralised cryptocurrency, because all competitors like Litecoin, Auroracoin, Ripple and recently Ethereum spiked and faded away) or centralised. If it will be a centralised currency, who will be backing it in FATCA world? Russia?

"Illegal gambling" - if we agree it will survive - needs a new currency. Money that can be freely moved with much less restrictions and with low probability of seizure. If the new currency is not a Bitcoin, what can it be? I do not see anything close to Bitcoin. The destiny of bitcoin for now is US gambling. Or the next step for Bitcoin fundamental higher valuation (except halving) is US gambling. It was clear even some time ago, when I wrote it even at GPWA. US Bookies have to lose a lot of money to realize that. But that is fine.

(Next step for Bitcoin is IT biz as general. Like my friend who owns quite big advertisement agency, who just got his offshore accounts closed after Panama leaks [not that he was listed there, banks are just crazy now], now started to accept bitcoins, even when he hates them. And guess what. It works...)