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  1. #1
    AussieDave's Avatar
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    Default @CrazyRewards - how are these games not fixed? (they are not - see below)

    Hi All,

    Spotted CrazyRewards doing a promo for their new 3D video slot release in another thread. I had not seen this casino group so I visited slotsandgames.com.

    NB - Before I promote any casino I always check out both their free play games and if all checks out, I then deposit $50 into their real wagering casino to test that out too.

    Well in this case I got as far as the free video slots and realised something was up.
    Played 50 spins each on Holiday Hotel and Conga Beat. Both slots paid winning combinations on each and every spin.

    At that point I knew something was up and posted in kind to the original thread. That received the following response from CrazyRewards:

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyRewards View Post
    As the Director of LMA Gaming, the company behind Slotsandgames.com I would like to dispel the myth that free games are fixed in any way in order to entice players to make a deposit. The games use a random number generator and the gaming operator Neo Games is fully licensed and regulated by governmental bodies that keep a close watch. There is absolutely no way that our free games are fixed. The fact that you did not experience the same result during the many years that you played is quite simply mathematics. It is all random and a game of chance therefore you can expect anything.
    That to me was a blow off response.
    So today I returned to play Conga Beat, Holiday Hotel and also Auto Show with the same results. All of these video slots paid winning combinations on each and every spin.

    Here is the video capture of these slot spins. Are these free play slot games fixed? I'll leave that up to your judgement.



    I also played Video Poker - Jacks or Better 4 hand multi play. 10 games all gave winning hands. Those screen captures can be viewed here:
    https://www.gpwa.org/forum/new-3d-sl...tml#post635863



    Cheers



    Dave
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  3. #2
    WinYourWayKyle is offline Private Member
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    Wow, this is very interesting.
    I think I am going to do some testing myself and see what happens with me.

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    MrDeposit is offline Private Member
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    Interesting find for sure.

  5. #4
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    Default

    Fixed free game play annoys me because:

    • It encourages sign-ups with false representation.
    • Demonstrates a lack of trust & credibility.
    • Gives other casinos a bad rap - players think all online casinos use fixed games.
    • Management claim free games are fair and legit, when obvious they are not.

    There is no other reason to set slots to always win than a ploy to encourage real wagering deposits. CrazyRewards is a GPWA sponsor program. Does no one check a sponsors credentials?

    Tweaking these free play video slots may not seem like a big deal...but I ask you to consider these possibilities. Based on my finds, would they:

    • Tweak their real wagering games?
    • Scrap your affiliate stats and earnings?



    Cheers



    Dave
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  6. #5
    Players Luck - Jamie's Avatar
    Players Luck - Jamie is offline Public Member
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    It doesn't matter, Free Play or Real Play if they have been fixed its unethical. Its a form of misleading someone. If Daves findings are to be correct who can audit this?
    Jamie Blake
    Skype: wga-jamie


    Best online casinos - Division of Players Luck Gaming

  7. #6
    CrazyRewards is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Quite frankly, the fact that Dave is alledging that the games are 'fixed' does not constitute that the games are actually fixed. It is quite easy to start empathizing with fellow players and colleagues but what about the brand whose name has been tarnished for no reason. LMA Gaming works closely with Neo Games to bring some of the best slot and instant win brands to market and we pride ourselves on our integrity, customer care, transparency and genuine commitment to creating the best online entertainment experience - what would anyone achieve by 'fixing' games?

    Fixing is completely unethical and intolerable and we will not take accusations such as these lightly. Furthermore, and I said in my previous post, we are licensed and regulated by the Government and the Lotteries & Gambling Authority and you should also be aware that thorough audits take place - I am sure one of these three bodies is in a better position to confirm our credibility.

    Dave, If you have any further queries, I suggest you contact me directly.

    Anthea

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    arkyt's Avatar
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    I've got a feeling that once you deposit all those consecutive winning spins will quickly come few and far between.

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  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyRewards View Post
    Quite frankly, the fact that Dave is alledging that the games are 'fixed'
    I've played 13.5 minutes of the free play slot games (Conga Beat, Holiday Hotel, and Auto Show). EVERY spin on those slots produced a WIN on EVERY game (spin).

    That points to these games not playing as they should. Nothing "alledged" about it!

    Argue all you like BUT if the RNG for these slot games are truly operating within acceptable industry boundaries, these slots would NOT pay WINS on each and every spin.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyRewards View Post
    Dave, If you have any further queries, I suggest you contact me directly.
    Why? If you've got nothing to hide and are adamant these games are not FIXED, then keeping this in open forum means your willing to discuss these issues.

    I'm applauded you have even attempted to squirm out of this with semantically BS, given the facts.

    Quite frankly, sugar coat it all you like...BUT...No slot machine using a legitimate RNG pays WIN after WIN on every spin.


    Regards

    Dave
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  11. #9
    CrazyRewards is offline Sponsor Affiliate Program
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    In response to yesterday's message, I spoke with Neo Games about this issue and was told the following:

    The odds and pay tables are identical to those used in real money play. The only difference between practice and real money play is that when playing with the 5 free, prior to making a deposit, you do not have the opportunity to win the Jackpots in the games, but this is clearly stated in the Terms and Conditions.



    I believe that answers the question, beyond that there is very little I can do to help regain your trust in our brands. We have been very open and honest and again, I can assure you that all is above board. I also believe in productivity through discussion, especially on forums such as these, but in the same breathe, I do believe we have to maintain a level of professionalism in the way that we address issues.











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    AussieDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyRewards View Post
    I do believe we have to maintain a level of professionalism in the way that we address issues.
    We agree on that point.

    What's been stated so far.. "It is all random and a game of chance therefore you can expect anything."

    I could go into mathematical detail and prove why your above statement is absurd in relationship to my posted video proof.

    However I fear I'd not only risk pulling this entire thread off topic but more so, it's clear by your responses your not au fait with the principles of an RNG, least of all, how a slot machine or any online gaming product uses them to determine a win/lose outcome.

    Back to the topic at hand...You've still not supplied a valid reason why the free play slots I've played (on two separate occasions) have paid wins on each and every slot spin.



    Regards

    Dave
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  13. #11
    arkyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyRewards View Post
    The odds and pay tables are identical to those used in real money play. The only difference between practice and real money play is that when playing with the 5 free, prior to making a deposit, you do not have the opportunity to win the Jackpots in the games, but this is clearly stated in the Terms and Conditions.
    Well damn, if I'm going to win every damn spin, I'm off to make a deposit !!! NOT !!!

    Clearly something is going on here and its damn sickening that no one seems to really care, least of all those who would like to consider themselves players advocates - yah right!

    Just another example of GPWA pushing a program which is not worthy of promotion on both affiliates and players! As already proven their primary objective seems to be concentrated on getting that sponsorship money in their hands - after that they dont really seem to care much what the programs/casinos do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkyt View Post
    Just another example of GPWA pushing a program which is not worthy of promotion on both affiliates and players! As already proven their primary objective seems to be concentrated on getting that sponsorship money in their hands - after that they dont really seem to care much what the programs/casinos do!
    I agree. That's why I don't participate in this forum very much.

    Good spot Dave!

    KK
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    Let's not all jump on the bandwagon. Nothing is proven until you test with real money. Actually, nothing was proven by playing free games, as you actually lost, going by the balance. After all, it's the balance that matters.

    There are so many paylines in this slot game, it must be hard to not win something with every spin.

    I also noticed that the vast majority of the 'wins' were much less than the wager, hence you ended up losing half your bankroll. Looks like the usual downward trend as with all slots. Ups and downs. Mostly downs.

    Put your money where your mouth is, and lets see the results.
    Janet

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyRewards View Post
    It is all random
    Are you sure about that!
    Cause what I'm reading the FAQ's at slotsandgames.com points to these slot outcomes as anything but.

    http://www.info.slotsandgames.com/FairPlay.aspx

    Fair play is the base we are standing on.

    # When we publish a new games series our computerized system makes a known amount of games based on the list of prizes. There is a 1 in 3 overall chance of winning a Prize on each game of any of the series when the series is first published.

    Each game is unique and encrypted by our system. When you buy a game the system will use a Random Number Generator (RNG) to choose a game from the relevant series, only then the system will make the game readable. The system has been carefully tested by running millions of rounds and examining results. The system is also systematically tested by Slots & Games team

    # You can choose the type of game you want to play, but you can't choose the unique game (for security reason).This means that even if someone knows the number of a unique winning game he can't choose it.
    ---------

    Reading those statements, it sounds to me like these slots are not slots at all, or should I say...They look like slots but do not act like slots should.

    Point in question.
    Couple of years ago a a couple of member at CM forum hit the Jacks or Better at SlotLand.com thinking the jackpot was about to pay-out. They were under the distinct impression the Jacks or Better was a Video Poker game - when in fact it wasn't. It was a slot machine designed to look like a Video Poker machine.

    Least to say sh#t hit the fan over this when one of or both of these players realised basic Video Poker strategy was not working.

    I believe this is the same with these slots at slotsandgames.com

    They're made to look like slots but they use a similar pay-out structure and game play to a Scratch Card - There is a 1 in 3 overall chance of winning a Prize on each game.

    That statement tells me, these are not slot machines but scratch cards made to look like a slot machine. Big difference!

    I'd also surmise the Jacks or Better (supposed Video Poker) also operates like a Scratch Card too. By reading the above "Fair Play" statements I'd bet my bottom dollar every game on that site functions as a Scratch Card.

    Not declaring that is just wrong on so many levels.



    Regards

    Dave
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    Have a look at the paytable, as well.
    There are a multitude more ways to win on this slot game than most.
    20 paylines and a ton of combinations that produce a win.

    My position is still that it's the balance that tells the storey here.

    You lost money. You didn't win.

    p.s. I'm playing that slot now, 'winning' every spin, and losing my free money at a normal rate for a slot game.
    Janet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergie View Post
    There are so many paylines in this slot game, it must be hard to not win something with every spin.
    Using your theory of more pay-lines = more wins.
    Please explain why MGS Dolphin Coast a 3125 pay-way slot doesn't produce a win every time - FYI that's 3,125 possible ways to win.

    I'll answer that for you.

    Dolphin Coast is a real video slot machine.
    Unlike those at slotsandgames.com, dressed up to look like a slot BUT play and pay-out like a scratch card!

    For someone who promotes casinos and recommends games to players, you really are clueless!

    Edit: If your that bored go watch the grass grow - don't come here trying to push my buttons with your hidden agendas.


    Regards

    Dave
    Last edited by AussieDave; 2 March 2011 at 1:23 pm. Reason: Edit:
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    I had a go at the free games and like your test I seen a winning (or losing as it might actually be) combination every single spin. If this is the way the slot is designed - and obviously that is the way they intended for it to play - I'm not sure I would call it "rigged" , but I would call it disingenuous, misleading, and damn annoying to think you are hitting winning combinations every single spin when in fact you are losing.

    Bottom line here. IMWO, is even if its not intentially/unintentionally rigged to cheat the player - it is designed in a less than desirable / genuine fashion and I wouldn't promote this crap on your site let alone mine.

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    Clearly the games are designed in order to deliver a return on every hand, playing multiline (I switched to single and didn't hit). I'm sure it's the same in real play. Obviously the idea is to create the illusion of winning for the gambler.

    Blackjack plays OK.

    The licensee probably doesn't know this. If he did, he probably wouldn't say, but he most likely doesn't.

    Bit of a toss up whether this low variance setup is better or worse for the player. High variance slots will have more busts so less play, low variance probably leads to more play but less stress with the slow whittling away of your balance. I'd have thought a slot player would get bored with this.

    One day they'll invent a slot that returns exactly 95c for every dollar bet. And it'll still get players.

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    There seems to be a disconnect between the opening statement and the actual results in the video.

    I don't really want to go into semantics or discuss the difference between "winning" and collecting some sort of "payout" - even if it is less than the originally staked bet.

    However, it does seem to me that the CrazyRewards affiliate manager was correct is his/her original statement that the free games are functioning correctly and in the same way as the paid games ... something that is backed up by the fact that the free play balance is actually diminishing in the play-test cases.

    Given that - I would have expected to see an admission that the initial post was incorrect.

    As for getting on moral standing and saying that this is designed to cheat or deceive a player into thinking that they are winning more than they actually are ... I think that simply sums up casino gambling overall.

    The flashing lights and music of the slots, the flash interiors of real world casinos and free/cheap meals and drinks, the low cut dresses of the croupiers, they are all designed to take the marks attention away from the fact that usually they are losing money.

    The gambling business is a business where the house usually wins and the customer/mark loses.

    I usually say so on my website reviews too and warn players to be careful and not to lose what they cannot afford but despite that - as Caruso wryly observed - there are plenty of players keen to line up and take their chances no matter what the mathematical odds are.

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  24. #20
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    This seems like a pretty standard sort of multiple-payline slot game to me.

    If you play lots of paylines it will be pretty common for one or more of them to win on each spin.

    But it will not be all that common for the winnings to exceed the bets placed on all of the paylines.

    There is nothing ethical or underhanded about that at all. And it is not uncommon to have devices in real casinos of this nature as well. It is my understanding that plenty of penny and nickle slot machines work this way.

    In order to avoid folks being mislead by the start of this thread I have edited the thread title to append the following text "(they are not - see below)"

    Michael
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