Creating a Fair Gaming Environment

[joeyl]

Fair enough MC.

But.. I see no good reason why industry related rumour cannot be posted as just that by yourself, your staff, myself or Tom Cobble, under our own handles.

I know who is who for the most part. Why change that? Think of the baffled newbie who will think buzz is a poster.

You'll see

& While i'm here...

Personally, heavy duty attention to the Players complaints forum by your 4000+ members is my want. Not portal seals, not buzz, not directories of the grim. A few more folk like you getting the hump with some casinos that treat the end user like mutants can work too.

[MichaelCorfman]

Personally, heavy duty attention to the Players complaints forum by your 4000+ members is my want. Not portal seals, not buzz, not directories of the grim. A few more folk like you getting the hump with some casinos that treat the end user like mutants can work too.

Doing that is definitely a desire of mine, and of Casino City. We've actually spent a decent amount of time tracking down some issues, and what we have found is that it can be incredibly difficult sometimes, and the issues are not always as clear-cut as we thought they would be. Which means it needs an infrastructure and support beyond what we have in place right now to avoid falling on its face. My view is that this is a multi-step process. First step is to grow the number of affiliates working together, and so our near-term focus is on activities and programs we think will help that happen. IMHO, strength on that front is what will enable us to effectively expand into other areas over the longer term.

Michael

[joeyl]

Doing that is definitely a desire of mine, and of Casino City. We've actually spent a decent amount of time tracking down some issues, and what we have found is that it can be incredibly difficult sometimes, and the issues are not always as clear-cut as we thought they would be. Which means it needs an infrastructure and support beyond what we have in place right now to avoid falling on its face. My view is that this is a multi-step process. First step is to grow the number of affiliates working together, and so our near-term focus is on activities and programs we think will help that happen. IMHO, strength on that front is what will enable us to effectively expand into other areas over the longer term.

Michael

I would look forward to such infrastucture dealing with player issues.

I see 15 years of the industry pass and you've joined partnerships with PR stunts like Ecogra, not alot else. Which admittedly may do your cred good with the suits and the industry blowhards. Not on the ground where it matters though.

Maybe the GPWA/Casinocity can get the self proclaimed "players seal" & "online gaming's regulatory body - Ecogra" to define bonus abuse before another 5 years of operation and another million dollars + worth of players funds are confiscated under the guise of "breaking the spirit of the promotion".

I need not tell you the spirit behind all advertising/promo's are profit. Do the right thing with your lofty position in the industry and you'll get all you deserve for making a difference where it is needed. Buzz is not where it's at MC.

I watch your work carefully amongst others. I know the score from a players point of view. If I see you make an honest difference, i'll say so.

[Dominique]

Joeyl, geez, there you go again!

Buzz is a useful thing.

Anything bringing information to us is useful. Buzz is what it says - it tells us what the "Buzz" is at the time. What people are talking about.

We can't all head down to the local pub and talk things out every day, so we need some place we can see what everyone is thinking about at the time. Doesn't matter much if it turns out to be the truth of all truths, its a bunch of points of interest and we all should be able to hear about them and watch things develop.

It doesn't have much to do with improving your lot, it has to do with allowing you to watch things in the industry unfold and make up your own mind about them.

Joeyl, Michael put a plate of oranges on the table and you are complaining that it's not steak and kidney pie.

Your pie is something we have all wanted for a long time, after all, if the player ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. You have GPWA and Casinomeister and the Players Union and Ecogra and the APCW all putting a spin on it, but it is never perfect and probably never will be.

All of the above contribute to making things better for players, whether you like the individual approach or not. The thing to to is to applaud and support every effort, so people are motivated to do more on that front.

[joeyl]

1) You can chat all you like under your own handle no?
2) The Ecogra fair gaming advocate endorsed 888 confiscating players funds because of bonus abuse. I will not applaud mediocre PR stunts by multi million dollar firms because you tire of the truth.

[Dominique]

1) You can chat all you like under your own handle no?

You betcha, that's what forums are for.

The Ecogra fair gaming advocate endorsed 888 confiscating players funds because of bonus abuse. I will not applaud mediocre PR stunts by multi million dollar firms because you tire of the truth.

I wasn't commenting on performances by any specific place on individual complaints, we could do that for the next few years without covering the subject, with more issues to add all the time.

I was just talking about providing services to the community. If it helps just one person, we are better off than before.

This thread is about the buzz, which is, from what I understand, a service that serves as a place one can go and see what is currently being talked about in the industry.

Not sure what's got your dander up about that....

[joeyl]

Aah well. Post rumour under the buzz handle then. What an ingeniuos concept.

What I won't do is stop asking the "gambling portals webmaster association" to rope it's 4000+ membership (some members have 500+ websites I gather) into using it's weight of number to help better the bread and butter's lot.

& i've never heard the gpwa's "fair gaming advocate" voice where fair gaming advocacy is concerned. I won't even bother inspect the "sealed" portals advertising streams.

There's only so many times one can explain how to play the games. There's only so many times one can post these 10 casinos are the mutts nuts.

That's the real buzz. I stand unmoved.

Thanks for your time.

[CityGuard]

& i've never heard the gpwa's "fair gaming advocate" voice where fair gaming advocacy is concerned.

We get a number of player complaints sent in to Casino City and I do work on those. At the same time, we're trying to work on building up the infrastructure to make changes on a scale larger than disputes reported to an individual portal. It's a balancing act between those projects in the long-term interest of the player by professionalizing the industry to the point where effective action can be taken, and the more immediate work involved in individual cases. Part of my balancing act between these two is that I don't spend time publicizing the individual cases I resolve. So it should definately be true that you haven't seen me be very visible from a player perspective, but I hope you don't take my quiet long-term approach as indifference. I would certainly welcome any ideas you have.

Is 'The Buzz' an RSS Bot Reader? If so, out of interest, what sources have you configured it to monitor?

Nope, the stories aren't based on an RSS reader. The Buzz is human reporting from the Casino City / GPWA reporters --Vin (Vinism), Ryan (McLane39), and Aaron (snooptodd). There are a few others who have access to the username (me, CityMN, CasinoCityMatt) but so far only the reporters are using it. It is general items that pop up to them as of particular interest to GPWA members that we haven't done a full story on yet.

[joeyl]

We get a number of player complaints sent in to Casino City and I do work on those. At the same time, we're trying to work on building up the infrastructure to make changes on a scale larger than disputes reported to an individual portal.

It's a balancing act between those projects in the long-term interest of the player by professionalizing the industry to the point where effective action can be taken, and the more immediate work involved in individual cases.

Part of my balancing act between these two is that I don't spend time publicizing the individual cases I resolve. So it should definately be true that you haven't seen me be very visible from a player perspective, but I hope you don't take my quiet long-term approach as indifference.

I would certainly welcome any ideas you have.

My ideas would likely clash with yours. That would be because I am a gambler first, a player.

I have no real interest in professionalising the industry Steven. I have no interest in operator difficulties. You may think that short-sighted.

Analogies usually kill a point, but I will try a rhetorical one..

If, you go to a restaurant, & you catch salmonella from the mayo. You don't want to hear good mayo is made with the white from raw egg. Right?

In this industry, the player is expected to do more than try their nuts off to win a few quid. Same for onland by the way. It is against the house rules to memorise the cards. It is against the rules for a player online to utilise the bonus offered to maximise profit.

I see no way with the attitude you display...
# The attitude of the likes of Bryan Bailey.
## The attitude of the likes of CPA.
... that much will change in the next 15 years of online gaming.

It's a good natured attitude. One that is used against your/#/## efforts to better the players lot, by the rogue, to the detriment of the player. That's the internet i'm afraid.

If the internet is policed, so could the rogue casino etc be. Until then, you (gpwa/cap/portals) should imo boycott at the strongest root, the software supplier. Try it, see how quick Micro, RTG, Cassava, Playtech - stop licensing the rogue (that's the only professionalism that matters right now, maybe I contradict myself then?).

An idea you will not go for. Michael won't. Lou Fabiano won't. CPA won't. Winneronline won't. Damian Dunlap won't. Meister won't..... Catch Salmonella from Heinz mayo and there is hell to pay though.

[bb1web]

Catch Salmonella from Heinz mayo and there is hell to pay though.<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

<HR style="COLOR: #ccc" SIZE=1>

Hi all,

perhaps its the choice of comparisons ... but I hardly think Heinz would be held accountable for that place serving their product because it was not refrigerated in the proper manner ... thus likely the cause for the problem.

I think the same can be said for rogue operators.

Further ... in almost every case I can recall ..... MGS has made sure players received their money despite not actually being responsible for the situation. *that being when the casino in question went bankrupt.

I can't say for 100% sure about the latter ... but my memory serves me into thinking that's how it always worked.

While its true there are situations on a player by player aspect that the software providers .... even MGS .. don't monitor or police the situation. I have written several articles addressing this matter but will try to make it short here:

Often times the problem is the casino in question will claim something like ... we didn't receive the necessary fax-in info in order to complete the cash-in. This opens doors for such excuses as .. it didn't arrive legible .. etc.

That's asking a lot of the software provider to investigate every single instance that crosses their plate. At some point they have to let control fall to the casino using their software.

I think that MGS chose the cut-off line being we'll make sure the bulk situations of players not getting paid a priority but not the individual basis. this is all speculation on my part however.

but perhaps here's another analogy (is that the right term?) .... anyway ...

places that sell gocarts give specific instructions on how to use the cart. There is no way they (or anybody else) can be there 24/7 to make sure the cart is used correctly. ..... last I heard ..... no suit has ever been successful for suing the manufacturer for a wreck that happened at a racetrack built to race those carts. However if it is proved the track itself was at fault ... there is room to sue the track. But I don't recall it ever falling back on the cart maker unless the problem was specifically with the cart itself.

maybe that's not the best example either .... but perhaps it does lend to your imagination an example that would make better sense.


Not too mention I don't see where its ever fair to punish those that are treating players correctly because a select few are not. Which would be the case if we were to boycott all casinos using a certain software.

If I believed that were fair .... I'd condemn every RTG instead of the ...... oh about 90% of them I think ought to be condemned.

I'm a player too. I've always approached things from a players pov. I currently have only a few sponsors listed .... one main one right now as I'm waiting on the other I still have faith in .. to pay me ..... as I figure if they can't pay me ..... what chance do players have?

There are new comers onto the picture who claim to be able to hand US players in a decent manner ... they are too unproven to me as yet to list .... though it obviously is costing me in at least variety to offer to not list these sites. Yet I don't because I want proven quality ... not promises. So please understand I'm not at all for only thinking of the affiliate side of things.

[pgaming]

Maybe this thread is going a bit off topic, but I hear ya joeyl. Please excuse me if I may speak my mind for a moment in regards to player’s interests. I for one would never endorse or recommend any player to download 888 driven software. The software is packed full of spyware, malware, bugs, exploits, etc… How they remain Ecogra certified remains a mystery.

Please forgive me but how some webmasters actually support brands knowing the player is not protected is beyond me.

So would I ever seek Ecogra as a credible players complaint centre? Not a chance I would find other alternatives. This industry is player driven as we all can feel now.

But I do like the “buzz” idea. In regards to the GPWA seal I like this as well. Ecogra just gives me the creeps so history has taught me.

Greek39

[bb1web]

somebody correct me if I'm wrong .... but Greek I think 888 has their finger deep into the ecogra pie.

[pgaming]

somebody correct me if I'm wrong .... but Greek I think 888 has their finger deep into the ecogra pie.

Know what I forgot about that. That's right they are part of ecogra no wonder 888 still gets away with it. I was trying hard to remember why I disliked ecogra so much. I beleive this issue was explored over at CAP about a year ago.

greek39

[joeyl]

Granted SteveBB1s.

I would not boycott Micro, yes they did payout for the fallen Goodfellas Casino. RTG license too many rogues though, so do Playwreck and 888 have been polluting everything on the internet they touch for 15 years.

Every webmaster blacklist them and watch how quick they stop licensing the rogue.

Heinz etc pay a heavy price if someone maliciously pollutes a product, let alone if the product comes from them polluted already. If RTG have a 90% polluted product, then what?

[CityGuard]

*** Thread Edited ***

This thread started out as a conversation about a new user created for certain news posted by GPWA reporters, and took on a second facet in discussion of fairness issues. To help keep both discussions in a format where they can be followed and contributed to, I've moved/copied the posts about fairness concerns to this new thread.

In some cases I have moved posts entirely. In cases where a post touches on issues relevant to both conversations, I've tried to copy the post to both places rather than move it from this one to the other.

The thread about "The Buzz" that led to this discussion is available at https://www.gpwa.org/forum/gpwa-has-buzz-169702.html.

[pgaming]

Thank you cityguard perhaps this is the more appropriate place. I need some clarification on the rules for this section which state:

Legitimate requests for help, with verifiable proof can be posted here. No flames or direct attacks on any casino in this forum. Please don't violate that policy.

I would like to explore the 888 software on my clean machine. Can I post the results here as they relate to spam, malware, spyware ect... My intentions are good and would not be directed at the GPWA.

greek39