Titan Poker dispute - please read and advice !

[PlayHunter]

I am counting weeks. No word, no money from Titan Poker. I think I have shown my patience and interest.

I think I have successfully combated every accusation they could ever bring me, Mr. Anthony might confirm.

Titan only hope is now to hide behind silence (as they did from the start) and to fraudulently pocket $550!

If they were right on their feet, in day 1 they would have sent a rep to prove my guilt and close my mouth.

[PlayHunter]

Update: - On 28 June Mr. Anthony received reply from Titan (Euro Partners).

Mr. Anthony told me he will give me full details of Titan response after the (29-30 June) weekend. After that date, I have not received any further information, even if I insisted several times. - He did responded on 3 July mentioning that he will update me soon.

I hope that Mr. Anthony have not had any health problems in the past two weeks which brought us this delay. - Other than that I am yet to hear a reason of why this delay is happening ? Now 9 July 2013, I feel pretty much with my hands tied regarding this case.

Euro Partners (Titan) is a Platinum Sponsor here at GPWA. - I thought this is the right place to ask for help when a player was treated unfairly (defrauded) by a casino. - I followed this path, I informed the casino and their games suppliers. - I was honest and open to any discussion on the matter. I`ve not been proved wrong, but I`ve got no money and my Titan Poker account is still locked ! - So I am yet waiting to see results !

[PlayHunter]

New Update: - I was informed by Mr. Anthony that Titan maintain its position in keeping my account closed and my money.

- Titan Poker maintain its accusations of Chip Dumping, but is NOT willing to provide their evidence! Not even to GPWA staff !!!

- Titan also added a new accusation: - I have played not allowed games with bonus funds. (I want to detail into this a bit and ask for public opinion)

*Yes, when I have registered my Titan Poker account I have received a $10 no deposit bonus from one Titan Poker affiliate, named PokerStrategy.

Titan Poker general Terms and Conditions state this: "You are aware that all cash bonus credits issued to players are intended for poker games only in accordance to the bonus terms." BUT, the $10 promotion I have accepted was from PokerStrategy and had the following terms:

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/titan-p...tting-started/ - point 2. - Note that nowhere is stated that general Titan Poker terms must apply!

My point is that Titan Poker general Terms and Conditions must apply ONLY to their OWN money, and NOT to their affiliates money/promotions!

Ex: BookmakerX T&C`s say all parlay wagers must be played on games with odds higher than 1.4, but its affiliate (AffiliateY) advertises a sign up promotion without any written restriction regarding odds or type of bets, they only require you in written to wager your bonus plus deposit 10 times as money accumulated in initial stake. - So, if i signed up at BookmakerX via AffiliateY, then AffiliateY T&C`s will prevail, because the affiliate is free to run ANY promo it wants, on its own rules, even if some of those rules may come in contradiction with the target gaming site general terms!

Yes, I have played a few blackjack games with that $10 bonus. - Note: this blackjack game was offered in the up right corner at any poker table!

Aside of what I said above, I am asking for the public opinion on the following:

1. - What are considered Casino Games and what are considered Poker Games ?

To my knowledge, the Game of Poker IS a Casino card Game in itself just like Casino Holdem or 3 Card Poker where you play against the dealer ! - But Video Poker IS also a Game of Poker, right ? (now you can see my point, it leads to anything which contains the word "poker", even "Poker Reels" - a slot game)

2. So again, what games can be considered Casino Games and what games can be considered Poker Games in an online environment ?

- I would answer myself that in an online environment, Casino Games are all the games offered in the casino download client, and Poker Games are all the games offered in the poker download client ! (And if you put a mini roulette game on the poker table, then that makes it a poker side game!)

My point is that even IF Titan general Terms did applied to my bonus, then they rely on an UNCLEAR / INCOMPLETE term. Unclear because as I explained above, the allowed / not allowed games are not clearly spelled out. - They merely say "casino games are not allowed for bonus play."

But as I explained above, Poker itself IS a casino card game, and since they don`t clearly spell out what games are allowed when they say "Poker" (Razz Poker, Omaha etc.) and what casino games are or are not allowed, then "Poker" games CAN MEAN Video Poker games as well?

- I am asking you, the public, I am wrong on my reasoning ? - If YES, please explain me why I am wrong ?

But if I am NOT wrong in my reasoning then, that particular term should be considered NULL because is unclear and / or incomplete !

And remember I have played only games offered in their Poker download Client, at their poker tables ! Nothing else. - Is Titan abusing me or not ?

[-Shay-]

Without reading the Poker Strategy terms, I'd think that any type of poker game is included in the free ten promotion - based on your explanation.

However, going to their page (via the link you provided), they specifically state the following types of games are permitted:

• No Limit $0.02/$0.04
• Fixed Limit $0.05/$0.10
• Sit and Go $1


Thus, if the game you played can truly fall under one of those three categories, then its my opinion that you have a legit complaint. If the game you chose cannot truly be called .02-.04NL, .05-.1FT, or a $1 Sit and Go - then there doesn't appear (to me) to be anything in the PS terms to trump Titan's terms and validate your claim.

[PlayHunter]

-Shay- , I see your point, and guess make sense but there is something to be added:

1. These PS limitations were all enforced by software. - When I tried to join higher stakes, the software did not allowed me. - So, I am thinking that, PS implemented a procedure which did not allowed users to break their bonus rules. I guess any excluded game in the poker client could not be accessed ?

2. Titan poker accused me of playing not allowed games only now when they affirmed that they are not going to prove me wrong on chip dumping.

3. When I have argued that general Titan T&C have to apply only to their own promotions and not to their affiliates promotions Titan replied to Mr. Anthony that Titan T&C must apply to my bonus because the money I have received from their PS affiliate was in fact directly from Titan. (and I have proofs that this Titan statement is false, since I have received that $10 as a Player to Player Transfer from one of Poker Strategy accounts !)

4. IF PokerStrategy terms should have come in compliance with Titan poker for that promo, then this should have been written in PS promotion T&C.

IF Titan T&C are meant to come in compliance or prevail over any of their affiliates promotion, then this should be clearly spelled out in Titan`s terms.

5. (Lastly, but not less relevant for a FAIR environment) IF a gambling operation is going to accept a bet, then they must be ready to pay out the outcome of that bet, and not hide in their T&C that some game are not allowed. If a game is not allowed, then restrict if by software ! It`s realistic.

Fair and square, but do not put the player in a "you can lose but you can not win situation". Again, PokerStrategy was correct and adjusted their restrictions by software. This was fair, they did not allowed me to place a bet, win it, and then come and scream "heiii man you broke our terms"..

[TheGooner]

My point is that Titan Poker general Terms and Conditions must apply ONLY to their OWN money, and NOT to their affiliates money/promotions!

Ex: BookmakerX T&C`s say all parlay wagers must be played on games with odds higher than 1.4, but its affiliate (AffiliateY) advertises a sign up promotion without any written restriction regarding odds or type of bets, they only require you in written to wager your bonus plus deposit 10 times as money accumulated in initial stake. -

So, if i signed up at BookmakerX via AffiliateY, then AffiliateY T&C`s will prevail, because the affiliate is free to run ANY promo it wants, on its own rules, even if some of those rules may come in contradiction with the target gaming site general terms!

This is wrong. The AffiliateY does NOT offer it's own games at BookmakerX.
AffiliateY is not licensed, has no ability to offer games, and has no terms and conditions.

No matter which link you use to sign up - if you play at BookmakerX then you are playing according to BookmakerX's terms and conditions.

But as I explained above, Poker itself IS a casino card game, and since they don`t clearly spell out what games are allowed when they say "Poker" (Razz Poker, Omaha etc.) and what casino games are or are not allowed, then "Poker" games CAN MEAN Video Poker games as well?

- I am asking you, the public, I am wrong on my reasoning ? - If YES, please explain me why I am wrong ?

Again - this is wrong. I would not expect video slots to be considered a "poker game" - it's casino game.
Even if it has poker in the title or "aces n eights" or any other poker phrase ... if it's a slot game ... it's not a poker game.

And remember I have played only games offered in their Poker download Client, at their poker tables !

Downloadable poker clients often have casino side games in the download ... that does NOT make them poker games.

----

This is not to say that you do not have some valid points in your specific case with Titan Poker ...
But when you attempt to become a "rules lawyer" and debate incorrect arguments and facts then all it does is to dilute your points and weaken your case.

[universal4]

I agree with Gooner.

You have been playing online for quite some time and you fully KNOW that any time you clearly go against the terms you risk keeping any winnings.

The bonus terms stated the bonus was for poker and you know that blackjack is not poker.

Rick
Universal4

[edgarf76]

I think it is great that if there is challenge with an affilate program that GPWA helps. This is a very good thing!

[PlayHunter]

This is wrong. The AffiliateY does NOT offer it's own games at BookmakerX.
AffiliateY is not licensed, has no ability to offer games, and has no terms and conditions.

No matter which link you use to sign up - if you play at BookmakerX then you are playing according to BookmakerX's terms and conditions.

We disagree on this statement: - some Affiliates DO HAVE Terms & Conditions and a licensing jurisdiction (Gibraltar for PokerStrategy) !

Here are the T&C of PokerStrategy : http://de.pokerstrategy.com/terms/ , however, for the case at hand yesterday I asked PokerStrategy who`s terms apply and they said that both terms (PS terms and general terms of the Poker site) must apply. And reading PS terms again, I can see at point 3.0 "Regarding payments (e.g. cashing out the starting capital, any winnings, rake back etc.) the terms and conditions of the respective poker site apply." - So yes, re-reading that term I can understand that in case if the affiliate terms come in contradiction with the poker site general terms, then the poker site general terms will prevail. (- However, my example was based on some past experiences, where I was assured by the Affiliate that their T&C prevail for their own money and promotions, I can give names and further examples, but I agree that this does not suits the case at hand.)

Again - this is wrong. I would not expect video slots to be considered a "poker game" - it's casino game.
Even if it has poker in the title or "aces n eights" or any other poker phrase ... if it's a slot game ... it's not a poker game.

Using common sense yes you are right. But I saw "n" scenarios when online casinos proved lack of common sense but kept players money, why would we not flip the coin ? As I said, Poker IS a Casino (card) Game - do we agree ? But the site terms says "the bonus money are meant for Poker and not for casino games" - then this terms is contradictory because poker is a casino game itself but casino games are not allowed for bonus play !

So, I still rely on the fact that Titan own term is contradictory, unclear and incomplete by itself:

Here is the term exactly as is written: "All cash bonus credits issued to players are intended for poker games only. We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the player's original deposit if the cash bonus is played on casino games or in sports betting."

As I said before, poker games ARE in fact casino games, and also casino games have some poker games variants that are played exclusively against the house (dealer) and not against the other players.

*If they wanted to have a clear term which to rely on, they should specifically state: "All cash bonus credits issued to players are intended for poker games where players play against each others only !"

Downloadable poker clients often have casino side games in the download ... that does NOT make them poker games.

They should specify somewhere in their T&C that casino games NOT allowed for bonus play CAN be / ARE found right on the poker table !

you know that blackjack is not poker

I know Blackjack is not Poker. BUT I was 99% certain that since it was offered on the poker table, was offered as a Poker Side Game, and therefore an allowed game since the software has accepted my bet! (Remember that when I tried to play not allowed poker stakes the software declined my bets!)

OK, I agree with my mistake though ... since I was only 99% sure (and not 100%) , I should have run to the live chat and ask them if I got it wrong.

This is not to say that you do not have some valid points in your specific case with Titan Poker ...

About my other valid points: - in the beginning I was accused of "irregular betting patterns against one player" (chip dumping). On this I was NOT proved guilty ! I have exposed all the evidence I had and Titan Poker and iPoker refuses to bring their "proofs" of chip dumping / irregular play.

Now I am asking the public again: - Do you think it is enough to call chip dumping and not provide hard proof evidence just because I have possibly breached a contradictory and unclear / incomplete bonus term ? If they do not prove their chip dumping accusation then any poker network / site can call this out of the blue and withhold players money at will. - Who think I am right on this ? - If so, then we can no longer trust online poker !

[universal4]

Playhunter, based upon YOUR posts, you stated you played at Titan Poker.
Playing at Titan Poker means you are subject to the terms and condidtions of Titan Poker.

Any discussion about whether an affiliate misled you about a bonus does NOT make Titan Poker responsible. (I do not think the affiliate misled you either, they offered a bonus which you recieved - from Titan)

Blackjack is NOT offered at the Poker Table, these are known as side games and are NOT part of the poker game.(you already know this)

Non of the discussion makes Titan's terms and conditions contradictory, the bonus you took was for POKER only, and you used it to play games other than poker. Trying to misdirect the discussion toward blackjack, video poker or any other side game being poker, is not helping the case in any way and is nothing more than trying to make a play on words.

The original complaint stated the cashout was denied due to "irregular betting patterns" which I agreed is a fairly lame excuse since I saw no pattern of chip dumping....however, the bonus issue is what I see as a clear violation of the terms and conditions at the card room you were playing at.

If you had been a new player and this was the first time you had played at an online poker room or online casino, the learning experience although painful, is something thousands of players experience each year, but it would be more understandable.

You are not brand new to playing online, and you yourself have probably read hundreds of stories about people not getting to cashout due to playing on a bonus or freebie and you also understand how important it is to read the terms of service (WHERE YOU PLAY).

Rick
Universal4

Attention ALL online players: ALWAYS read the terms and conditions of any bonus offers you take advantage of, and if you play at Casino X or Poker Room Y, be sure to read the terms where you plan on playing since only THEIR terms apply. (If you have questions about a bonus, ask before you play or don't play)

[PlayHunter]

OK, I agree that they may have the right to not pay my winnings. (You are right when you said I have some online gambling experience and that I have read quite a lot of stories. - But seems the Bonus Terms & Conditions are just TOO COMPLEX for me! - Guess I will stop playing with bonuses.)

But now I have one last question for you and for the readers:

- If now they finally managed to prove their right to void my winnings, do you think it is OK for them to call me "chip dumper" and not bring proofs ?

This is not entirely a matter for the money, but also for the trust in online poker ! - Do you agree with this statement ?

I will explain why: Now I am scared to play online poker anymore because I know that at any moment it is possible for a site to lock my account, (maybe all my account on an entire network) accuse me of chip dump and then I can say bye bye to all money I had in my accounts (say there will not be any bonus issues and no other "problems") but out of the blue "bam": irregular betting patterns, no proofs, but money locked ? Do you realize that any poker site or network can do this ? - I ask you to demand Titan Poker / iPoker to show you proof of chip dumping before closing the case !

[universal4]

I do agree that the opriginal excuse used calling you a chip dumper was confusing and possibly a mis-direction.

If the original issue was the bonus, then the first email you got from them should have stated that and the issue could have stayed on track from the beginning.

I will state, that IF (intent here is a big portion that we just do not know) IF the intent of using that excuse was to mis-direct away from the actual reason they refused payment or closed the account than it is BULLSHIT....

If the excuse given was because someone in customer service didn't know what they were doing when they answered the request for reasons, then that person should be trained to answer truthfully and should not be allowed to answer emails until they understand that....

If you have discovered a pattern of customer service dishing out BS excuses rather than being honest with players on why cashouts etc are being denied, then I would like to see this cleared up for sure....

When players are denied cashouts, and they question it, they DESERVE straight HONEST answers why the first time they ask....and they should not have to bang on customer service multiple times before they get those answers.....

We all know that once the real reasons are revealed, a certain amount of players will continue to question the "why's" and "what for's" after the fact, so providing the real reasons to start with just helps reduce the constant back-and-forth in working these issues out.

Titan, I would very much like to see your explanations for the above.

Playhunter: You said

Guess I will stop playing with bonuses.

If you are an avid player, this might be a really good move for you, and even if you decide to play using bonuses (be sure to read the terms where you play) and consider NOT playing under freebies since they are much more restrictive than other bonuses, and remember a poker bonus is almost always to be used ONLY for poker.

Rick
Universal4

[PlayHunter]

Do you think it is OK for them to call me "chip dumper" and not bring proofs ?

This is not entirely a matter for the money, but also for the trust in online poker ! - Do we agree ?

Titan, I would very much like to see your explanations for the above.

Rick
Universal4

So I am looking at the calendar and I see that one month passed since Titan Poker (a GPWA Platinum Sponsor) has been publicly called on the bar (by some GPWA staff) to justify their chip dumping accusations (with proofs) regarding my case. - No reply from such a big sponsor is not a bit "arrogant" ?

*One month passed since, and no word from them ! - I am wrong to affirm that this speak loads about Titan Poker management and image credibility ?

I have said Titan Poker ? OH sorry, I meant iPOKER - because they was the ones that called me a chip dumper as I was informed by Titan Poker.

- So iPOKER does not give a sh*t about their image either ?? * I will bump up this thread on a (bi)monthly basis so people can be warned of iPOKER network business model until they can prove me a chip dumper. - This issue is not closed yet. - People be warned: do NOT trust iPOKER at any cost !!!

[-Shay-]

I agree with Gooner.

You have been playing online for quite some time and you fully KNOW that any time you clearly go against the terms you risk keeping any winnings.

The bonus terms stated the bonus was for poker and you know that blackjack is not poker.

Rick
Universal4

They probably should respond regarding the "chip dumper accusations", but I agree with the quoted assessment.

[PlayHunter]

They probably should respond regarding the "chip dumper accusations", but I agree with the quoted assessment.

-Shay-, I have not combated the affirmation you quoted anymore (see post #31), so I agreed that they may have finally found some excuse to not pay my money. - However, they have been accusing me of chip dumping, and for this they was called on the bar by Universal4 (Mr. Rick) as I quoted.

The fact that they have finally proved their right to hold my money DOES NOT WASH THEIR HANDS of accusing me of chip dumping. (Titan Poker communicated me that this was triggered against my account and player with nickname "bXXrXX1" at iPOKER command, as I have previously posted.)

The "incriminating" hands are found in the first post of this thread. They had quite a few months to clear this mess up, but for a matter of fact none from iPOKER or Titan did anything in this regard. Not even after Mr. Rick expressly have addressed this issue in his last post, one month ago!

So they (Titan Poker or iPOKER) were obliged to come in here and bring proofs to justify their allegations against me ! Again, as I have previously said this problem is not entirely for the money (that issue was solved), but it is about the whole iPOKER network credibility at stake now !

[universal4]

PlayHunter,
You broke the bonus terms.

I agree that a customer service rep likely should not have used an invalid excuse. I do NOT see this as an iPoker problem or issue, even if the Titan rep just made something up to tell you, that is on them NOT iPoker.

The fact that you worked out a satisfactory solution to your problem should be it.

Rick
Universal4

[PlayHunter]

Mr. Rick, I am not sure that you are right in this case. - Several Titan representants (not only a single one) confirmed me that I was flagged by iPOKER as having "irregular betting batterns at the poker tables against playername", and later they gave me the respective hand logs which I posted here.

So, I believe it was not just something "made up" to close my mouth instead to simply tell me "you broke the following bonus term.." - it is illogical.

In any case, due to this issue "chip dumping accusation" now I have lost my trust in the whole iPOKER network. - I see fit that a rep from Titan or iPOKER to come here and clear things up so can be crystal clear to everyone that this was not a iPOKER chip dumping issue, but only a bonus one.

I think do you agree that this is the correct procedure, and as you have requested them one month ago, to come here and give explanations about the chip dumping accusations made, you will keep your position on that and pursue them until they comply with this request.

[universal4]

Again, this may be the case, but this is based upon communications with Titan only correct?

If you do not trust iPoker any longer based upon this, then you are correct that YOU should not play at an iPoker room any longer.

Rick
Universal4

[PlayHunter]

It is based upon multiple email communications with Titan Poker made both by me and by Mr. Anthony: - at least 7 different persons (I have emails saved) from Titan Poker support have accused me of "irregular betting patterns against the above xxxnicknamed player" in those respective 3 hands I have posted.

And if that was not enough, both me and Mr. Anthony, sent informing emails about the chip dumping / irregular betting issue to both iPOKER and Playtech, and to my knowledge none of these companies cared to respond the issue. - I think people must be aware and stay away from this iPOKER network !

[universal4]

I understand that iPoker was the providing network, but I still feel it is wrong to lay this off on them.

The communications received were from Titan (you have stated that iPoker would not comment) and even if they accused you of chip dumping, Titan was the only ones that actually stated this accusation in writing to you correct?

My guess is that iPoker uses the "irregular betting pattern" which could include "chip dumping" any time there is an issue. This does not make it 100% right, but I question if they in fact flagged your account, if it was done so based upon information they got from Titan, or if there is more information that is not disclosed.

For all we know, the other account may have been involved in other issues, and your account might have been caught up in that causing the flag.

I would like to see an official statement, since it could help clear the confusion, but we may not due to the bonus terms violation.

Rick
Universal4