What's going on in Canada???

[The Buzz]

Buzzy doesn't understand what's going on in Canada right now.

First, VIP.com pulls out.
Then NETeller pulls out.
Now, Virgin Games pulls out.

Are the Mounties on some kind of anti-gambling kick that the rest of the world doesn't know about? Are U.S. banks (and or government) placing pressure on Canadian banks to stop working with gaming companies? What's going on??!! This is just too weird.

[pgaming]

Don't really know. I know the province of British Columbia offers online lottery betting.

Canada and the U.S are huge trading partners but this doesn't always mean Canada will bow down to the U.S. Case in point Canada would follow the WTO rulings etc...


Just a thought

greek39

[Intertops]

Admin: If this is not the right place, please move my post.

Webmasters: If you have Canadian traffic and don't know what to do with it:

[The Buzz]

It's nice that Intertops still welcomes Canadians. But it doesn't explain why they're not welcome at other places. Buzzy is so confused. Somebody please talk to Buzzy and explain why companies are pulling out of Canada.

[pgaming]

Hey Buzzy Online Gambling in Canada is a very complex isssue. I would imagine some companies are pulling out as a precautionary measure. The topic gets very interesting when searching for "U.N Canadian Aboriginal".

Will Canada follow the U.S? Maybe, but I highly doubt the aboriginals will. A good topic worth exploring.

greek39

[big fish]

it is possible that the reasons could be that many companies have bases in canada. in fear of getting their staff and key employes, data, funds, etc.. busted for allowing canadians to place bets. they just don't allow canadians and problem solved. just a theory, but i like brainstorming...

[pgaming]

Good point Big Fish it could just be the fear factor. The internet lies within federal juristriction but gambling in controlled provincially. I was reading the paper today suggesting the Canadian Government wants to deregulate some forms of telecommunications. Not sure excactly what this means? Maybe allow for greater competition.

Banks are controlled at the federal level.

The whole thing is so murky.

just a thought

greek39

[The Buzz]

In the brainstorming vein, here's what's known and unknown (and please correct me if this information is inaccurate):

Known
Operating an online casino -- unless you are an Aboriginal group -- is clearly illegal.

Playing online is not illegal.

Unknown
Whether aboriginal nations have sovereignty under Canadian law to operate and or host online casinos.

Whether Canadian banks are under pressure to stop working with gaming companies (and where that pressure might be coming from).

Whether the Canadian government is under pressure to crack down on gaming (pressure most likely coming from the U.S. in a link to money laundering/war on terror).

Whether there's been an increase in "money laundering" by U.S. citizens through Canadian accounts since the passage of the UIGEA.

Am I missing anything?

[bb1web]

hether there's been an increase in "money laundering" by U.S. citizens through Canadian accounts since the passage of the UIGEA

gotta be!


just my thoughts however judging on what I know from private conversations.

[WinYourWayKyle]

I find this very odd as well. Being a citizen of Ontario, Canada, there is hardly any press about the online gaming industry in Canada. You are able to place bets for the state run lotteries online, as run by the OLG (Ontario Lottery & Gaming Commisison).

You can go online to OLG.com and set up your bank to automatically place bets for you for Super 7, 6/49, etc...

This is exactly the same as online gaming, except it is state run. I dont see a big threat to the online gaming industry in Canada, but I do agree with one of the above posters that there may be pressure from the US for Canada to ban online gaming.

The natives run the gaming commission out of Quebec, on Native land, and it is unclear if the Ontario or Federal government regulates it. Native land kind of has "special" treatment, so I think this may be why some of the online gaming sites are pulling out.

I would think that the online gaming sites that are pulling out of the industry in Canada are the ones that are reghulated by the Kanawake Gaming Commission, which is the license that the Natives provide on their Native land in Quebec.

Maybe they are pulling out of Canada until they can find another license somewhere else offshore.

[kidd75219]

I haven't heard of any Microgaming casinos pulling out of Canada. Most of them are licensed in Kanawahke.

[pgaming]

Willing to put some man-hours into this one. Arguments presented so far are very interesting ones no question. Theoretically so far I believe the DOJ is pressuring other sovereign countries to adopt the same policies.

An executive from one of Canada’s largest banks (Royal Bank) was detained by DOJ not too long ago only to be released. Still following up on this lead. The typical U.S bullying tactic we have grown so accustomed to.

There is a lot more to follow up on. Maybe Neteller figured it made more economical sense to simply pull out of Canada rather than keep fighting the DOJ.

Very interesting and will follow up on this.

Greek39

[pgaming]

After spending some time researching this complex issue no definitive could be attained. So is the Online Gambling landscape changing in Canada? I see no evidence of such.

According to some legal experts the current provincial and federal laws is “unclear”. Canadian citizens placing wagers online to other sovereign nations I believe is totally legal. If Canadians were denied this right this could possible set up double standard with respect to the rights the kahnawake enjoys compared to the rest of the country.

Were Canada to use the Code to keep foreign Internet betting operators from accessing Canada’s betting market, while allowing the Kahnawake Mohawks to benefit from the betting activities of non-Canadians, itwould not be in breach of its obligations under GATS, as Canada has explicitly excluded all entertainment-related services from its GATS commitments. However, such a policy shift could well result in bilateral trade disputes with countries that license Internet betting, including countries with whom Canada has important trade ties, i.e. Australia & the U.K. and others.
Course of Public Policy for Canada and Online Gambling. Combination of open area of law dealing with application of criminal law in Internet context, and complications added by Canada’s obligations under international trade law, it is doubtful that Canada will come down hard on Internet gambling as the U.S. has done. Barring major policy change, the authorities will not be cracking down on Internet gambling based in offshore jurisdictions
source: http://gaming.uleth.ca/
Cache:http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=4&gl=ca

Take a good read very interesting stuff. In addition the U.N has takin issue with Canadian Government for Human Rights Violations. The U.N believes the inherent sovereignty rights of all Aboriginals should be respected. This is a issue Canada is slowly improving on.
Can Online Casinos operate within Canada? I would have to say yes, but limited to the sovereign territories of the aboriginals. Many Online Casinos presently operate within the boundaries of the Kahnawake Reserve. This could be challenged in the court of law to expand outside these territories for the double standard it creates.

This really doesn't answer the question why did Neteller, Citadel,and Firepay cease to facilitate Online Gambling transactions for Canadians. I can only speculate on two reasons.

1. A precationary move that Canada will soon adopt the same policies as the U.S.

Can't see this happening anytime soon. Unlike the U.S Canada did not adopt any Patriot Act, where bills like the UIGEA could slip through. If the Patriot Act was never adopted by the U.S. the UIGEA I beleive would require a constitutional challenge.

2. Many Americans are using Canada to gamble Online.
US online casino players are trading their red, white and blue stars and stripes for the red and white of the Canadian flag in order to continue visiting online casinos without being caught.

The program masks American based Internet provider addresses with Canadian ones so to the online casino poker site the online casino user appears to be playing from a Canadian address. Under the US ban gamblers are not allowed to use credit cards and online gambling houses are forbidden from accepting checks, credit cards, or electronic fund transfers to handle wager transactions. However many online casino players get past this by using third party payment processors.

In Canada gambling winnings are tax exempt in the U.S they are not. I agree with the possiblity of money laundering. This does implicate Canada to a certain extent.

I find no definitive answer? But I can't see Canada being bullied around by the U.S. Maybe ten years ago but not today.


greek39

[The Buzz]

Thanks for taking some time to look into this Greek. Buzzy, and the rest of the GPWA I'm sure, appreciates it. Your read on the situation is pretty much the same as mine. It's legal for Canadians to bet online with offshore casinos. No official financial restrictions have been put into place regarding gambling transactions. And aboriginal is unknown until someone decides to put it to a legal test, with tribal sovreignty likely being the winner. So with all this information, there definitely has to be something going on behind the scenes. We're just going to have to sniff it out. Thanks.

Buzzy

[bb1web]

have to sniff it out

Hi again all,

well don't go getting too big a nose-full because I can already tell you its not going to smell pretty.

[PokerAddictz]

Ok... First of all... the UIGEA does not change any laws, but was put in place to ENFORCE the laws that were already in place. Please read this article from the cardplayer.com resident law specialist.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_law/article/1446

In Canada, I think that everyone is just ShellShocked, thus the different companies closing their doors to Canadians. It is not illegal to participate in online gaming, but it is such a gray area, the sites don't know what to do. When things blow over, everything should go back to normal... Until then, we will all have to deal with it.

[pgaming]

Hi again all,

well don't go getting too big a nose-full because I can already tell you its not going to smell pretty.

Neteller had no other choice but to pull out of Canada. The cash was redirected to accounts located in Calgary Alberta. The transfers were masked under false pretenses making it a money laundering bonanza? Neteller had no choice but to leave.

A educated guess

My last jab at this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3xU0EA



greek39