What's a good PPC (price per click) to charge an advertiser?

[MichaelBluejay]

I hope this is the right forum to post this in, I couldn't find anything else that looked relevant.

I'm trying to find out the market rate per click to charge online casinos for ads on our site. I know most members here do CPA or revshare so they probably won't know what a good PPC is, but I thought I'd post anyway on the off chance that any members do happen to know. For various reasons we don't want to do CPA or revshare ourselves.

We've been charging a flat monthly rate for our adspace for years, but as our traffic keeps increasing it's cumbersome to keep renegotiating the rate, so we're thinking of just pegging it to the number of clicks we deliver. We have a good reputation and a good relationship with our current advertiser and they know we wouldn't inflate clicks, and of course they would simply drop us if we started delivering more clicks but they didn't see a corresponding increase in signups.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[Captain]

Hey Bluejay,
Free traffic first would prove the value.

[greedygirl]

We've been charging a flat monthly rate for our adspace for years, but as our traffic keeps increasing it's cumbersome to keep renegotiating the rate, so we're thinking of just pegging it to the number of clicks we deliver. We have a good reputation and a good relationship with our current advertiser and they know we wouldn't inflate clicks, and of course they would simply drop us if we started delivering more clicks but they didn't see a corresponding increase in signups.

Please reconsider moving to this model. As it is, you're probably not realizing the monetary potential your site has--this sort of move will be counter-productive.

You can read a bit more about current PPC rates here: http://marketplace.quigo.com/marketplace/

Granted, these are retail rates, but they are also retail rates on some of the highest trafficked websites on the 'net.

I'm not certain how many operators would be interested in this sort of arrangement and as good as your relationships may be, I certainly would be wary of tracking with this.

As you only have one advertiser, it's difficult to understand why it's 'cumbersome to keep negotiating the rate.' If you think this is cumbersome, just wait til you have to start watching the clicks and monitoring the accuracy of the tracking. IMO, it's the perfect way to destroy a good relationship.

Since you don't want to go by way of CPA or revshare, keep it simple and clean. My advice would be to simply raise your rates as your traffic and conversions warrant. If you're sending traffic of value, without question, you'll receive the rate increase.

[MichaelBluejay]

Thank you for the responses, but I'm afraid none of them are what I'm looking for. I was wary of posting here because I expected everyone would try to argue with what we're doing. I tried to pre-empt that by providing some background to legitimize why we're going down this road but I just got arguments about that.

Really, all I'm looking for is an idea of what a real human click is worth to an online casino advertiser. Is that something anyone can actually help with? Thank you for any help with this particular question.

[MichaelBluejay]

Okay, I just remembered that Google is now taking gambling ads in the U.K., so I fired up the Adwords keyword estimator and found the following:

online casino $5.00 - $5.83
play blackjack $1.69 - $2.11
play roulette $2.04 - $2.55

That's helpful, but it's quite a range. Are we closer to the $1.69 side or the $5.83 side? The average would be $3.76.

The best way to find the market rate would be to invite multiple advertisers to bid, except we're not looking to change advertisers so there's no point in wasting operators' time asking them to bid on something they can't actually get.

But that gets me thinking, while affiliates might not know the market rate PPC because they work on revshare and CPA models, operators certainly have a good idea of what a real click is worth to them, so here's hoping that some operators can help us out with this one. I'm sure we could find some way to thank them appropriately.

[greedygirl]

Thank you for the responses, but I'm afraid none of them are what I'm looking for. I was wary of posting here because I expected everyone would try to argue with what we're doing. I tried to pre-empt that by providing some background to legitimize why we're going down this road but I just got arguments about that.

Really, all I'm looking for is an idea of what a real human click is worth to an online casino advertiser. Is that something anyone can actually help with? Thank you for any help with this particular question.

Not arguing. Because I care for Mike, I want the best for him. Years of experience tell me that going the PPC route will be a mistake. I simply tried to give you information (which I believe I did) and give you a bit of food for thought.

You're clearly set on what you want to do, so all I can do is wish you the best with it.

[MichaelBluejay]

Thanks, but the marketplace site doesn't show PPC for online gambling.

[LiveCasinoPartners]

I've always had the idea that of someone wants to buy your advertisement space, it's worth more that they are giving. I can't see why you would not want to do a revenue share. From an affiliates perspective, I've been getting on verage $4.00 per click on some of my affiliate sites. I think you should get at least that much.

[AK]

Obviously the correct way to make the most bang for your buck would be net loss. I assume Bodog is the operation your dealing with.. I also understand your reasoning for wanting clicks instead of a long term net loss deal with there current situations!

Tough call

Ever consider another organization? You run a good ship over there, If I would to bet a value meal over it, I would bet You would make the right decision.

[tryme]

If you've been doing rev share in the past, you could take a look at the amount of clicks you've sent similar properties over the last six months and the amount of revenue you've generated to get an idea of the value of a click on your site.

That would be a good way to determine the real value for PPC on your website.

[Simmo!]

The problem with using Adwords as a guide is that you can't. It's based on the Quality Score within a given account so "online casinos" might be $20 a click for one advertiser, and $1 a click for the next.

I think the best way to do this is look at past performance and conversion rates. Calculate the average lifetime player value (or ask your current advertiser maybe), let's say it's $250. So say you get 10 players for every 100 clicks (high yes, but just to keep it simple) on average in the past, then every 100 clicks is worth $2500. So a click is $25.

[CityGuard]

There are two methods I can see for determining the CPC rate, one based on approximating the current tenancy rate and the second based on details about player spend.

1) Divide current rate charge per year by number of clicks per year. This makes sense if you view your current tenancy rate as about the right level that it should be.

2) Request detail on total amount that players you referred spent at the site. Divide total spend by total number of clicks. Determine what percentage of income you and your advertiser agree is fair for referral fees. This would likely be slightly lower than typical revenue share rates since it is paid upfront, but I would suggest the advertiser's revenue share rate could give some guidance on what they believe is fair. Multiply total spend per click by the percentage you're willing to offer to get your fees per click.

[Doolally]

If you're planning on sticking to the same advertiser and just changing to a different revenue share, why not just divide current value but clicks produced and work out the value that way. Then, as traffic, increases, your revenues do as well and it's all transparent and fair.

[MichaelBluejay]

I can't see why you would not want to do a revenue share.

I'm sorry I couldn't convince folks that we had our reasons and to just trust us, but since I have to lay it out, here it is:

(1) The whole legal situation is murky, but there's general agreement that rev-share is slightly riskier than other methods, since the publisher is directly sharing in the profits, making them a de-facto operator, if the feds wanted to make such a case. Personally I think it's a stretch, and I don't think that it's illegal to advertise online gambling in the U.S., but the site owner doesn't want to take that chance, and I don't blame him.

(2) Rev-share is a big unknown. What if our income drops precipitously? Then we can't easily go back to the old flat-rate model. I doubt our advertiser would be very patient with our switching around ad models to find the one that made us the most money. We have a sure thing now, and so there's no need to put that at risk.

I hope we can drop that tangent now.

From an affiliates perspective, I've been getting on verage $4.00 per click on some of my affiliate sites.

That's helpful, thank you. It's within the range that I've been finding on my own, so that's good.

If you've been doing rev share in the past, you could take a look at the amount of clicks you've sent similar properties over the last six months and the amount of revenue you've generated to get an idea of the value of a click on your site.

If I had that kind of data, I wouldn't be posting here.

[MichaelBluejay]

I'm sorry, I replied before seeing that there was a second page to this thread. The forum software doesn't make that so obvious.

As for the idea of looking at the number of actual players we refer or the actual value referred and dividing by the number of clicks -- that's obvious, and that's what I'd do if I had access to that data. I don't. All I have is the number of human clicks we send over. Yes, we could ask our advertiser, but I'd prefer not to have to rely on the other party's data in this kind of situation. That's why I've been looking for a market rate.

The problem with using Adwords as a guide is that you can't. It's based on the Quality Score within a given account so "online casinos" might be $20 a click for one advertiser, and $1 a click for the next.

Even their keyword estimator which anyone can run without having an account? That's what I did.

[slotplayer]

All I have is the number of human clicks we send over

Like CityGuard and others indicated.

Divide the number of clicks into the flat rate to get the average PPC and use those figures as a base price for each advertiser. When/if the clicks increase so will the rev.

I would imagine advertisers won't be too happy if they're averaging a $1 a click now and you decide the market rate PPC is $5.

[MichaelBluejay]

Like CityGuard and others indicated. Divide the number of clicks into the flat rate to get the average PPC and use those figures as a base price for each advertiser. When/if the clicks increase so will the rev.

Not my question. That just tells us *our* effective PPC, not the market rate.

I would imagine advertisers won't be too happy if they're averaging a $1 a click now and you decide the market rate PPC is $5.

The market decides the market rate, not us.

Yet again: My simple question is, what is the range (or samples) of CPC for online casino advertising? If you can answer this question, your help is very much appreciated. If you can't answer it, there is no need to answer some other, imagined, unasked question. Thank you.

[Simmo!]

If I had that kind of data, I wouldn't be posting here.

Just ask a few casinos what their av. player retention is Michael - I did and got the responses I needed. The PLC's even publish it (32Red = £536 but that is probably one of the best casinos out there to be fair)

Even their keyword estimator which anyone can run without having an account? That's what I did.

Their keyword estimator doesn't take into account all the factors. My understanding is that it's not accurate because it's relying on data from existing advertisers who all have different quality scores and landing pages which dictate what they pay. It really just gives you a good idea of the competitiveness of a term.

[jamesmc]

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cjmcbriar%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cm sohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <ooNotRelyOnCSS/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {colorurple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} span.EmailStyle16 {mso-style-typeersonal; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; color:windowtext; mso-text-animation:none; font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; text-underline:none; text-decoration:none; text-line-through:none;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi Michael, at Gambling.com we used to run CPM banners along with our PPC search engine. We recently moved all the banners to CPC, retaining the PPC search, we do very little affiliate/rev share, the only CPM advertising is our exit traffic. Here is our rate card so you can compare prices;

Display Placements/Banners<o></o>
Banners ROS- £2.50 CPC<o></o>
Skyscraper- £3.50 CPC<o></o>
MPU- £5 CPC<o></o>
Exit Traffic- £100 CPM
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cjmcbriar%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cm sohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <ooNotRelyOnCSS/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Palatino Linotype"; panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 5 5 3 3 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870009 1073741843 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Palatino Linotype"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:navy;} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {colorurple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} span.EmailStyle16 {mso-style-typeersonal; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; color:windowtext; mso-text-animation:none; font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; text-underline:none; text-decoration:none; text-line-through:none;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->

See http://www.gambling.com/advertising or you can also view our media pack http://www.gambling.com/advertising/...esentation.ppt

Hope that helps.
James <o></o>

[MichaelBluejay]

Thank you JamesMC. I had actually already found the pricing on your site -- I had it in my notes from 2006 from when I was last doing market research. You're the only site I found advertising PPC rates for banners, so this was exceptionally helpful.

I didn't see any gambling banners when I visited the site, but I assume that's because I'm in the U.S. and you're geo-targeting your ads so U.S. visitors don't see gambling ads. But surely Vonage, Adobe et. al. aren't paying £2.50-3.50 per click?!