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  1. #1
    Caruso is offline Public Member
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    Default Cheating at BetFred

    In case anyone missed it: BetFred uses games that cheat:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...ilo-games.html

    Their excuse is "we accidently used the wrong helpfile, ie. the one that says it doesn't cheat", or words moreorless to that effect.

    Good luck getting that one to stick, Fred.

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  3. #2
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    betfred cheats also when they need to pay you.. so I am sure that they have games that cheat
    just pay attention which sites you promote...

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  5. #3
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    It's not quite as straight forward as that, but certainly the statement Betfred have made so far is not adequate. Betfred have offered a game produced by a small company - Realistic - without carrying out testing of their own. Now that is a problem, but as far as i'm aware it's pretty much universal across the industry right now - though i would hope this incident will cause that to change.

    There is little question in this case that the game, while using cards as a device, has been coded not to reproduce the true odds that would occur naturally if using a deck of cards. In other words this is a blatant case of cheating and as such i would strongly encourage every webmaster here who advertises a casino offering Realistic games to contact their AMs and tell them that this brand is no longer considered to be fair and as such jeopardises the reputation of the venue by their continued involvement with this company.

    The brands i'm aware of that utilise Realistic games are Betfred, Bet365, BetVictor, Boyle, Nordic Bet, Sporting Bet and Stan James. If anyone comes across any more please let me know.
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  7. #4
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    Nordic Bet have pulled the games. I've removed Betfred and Bet365. Working on removing Stan James and following progress.

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  9. #5
    FictionNet is offline Private Member
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    POGG, you've been doing some good work in the thread at CM - thank you. Your bolded post is useful as a quick-glance of who's using the rigged games but it's a fluid list, could you update it for affs here who don't follow CM?

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  11. #6
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    Thanks FN - this is an evolving situation that's changing very very fast. For the time being the known facts are that a Realistic Hi/Lo game has been found producing non-random results in such a way that the results could not be accidental. At the same time as this it has come to light that an intermediary party - FinSoft, who act as a middleman between software providers and the casinos leasing the games - have been rigging free play versions of someof their clients games to return a higher amount to the player than the real play version of the game. As the Hi/Lo game is also provided through FinSoft, this leads to questions as to who coded the non-random results seen in the Hi/Lo game.

    Currently the casinos i'm aware of that offer Realistic games are;

    EDIT - this list is non-relevant - the games in question are provided by Realistic however the problem appears to have occured with an intermediary company that has been changing the way the games function. As such, groups using Realistic games straight from the provider are not affected. Most notably BetVictor.


    Bet365
    Betfred
    Boyle
    Stan James
    Nordic Bet
    BetVictor
    Sporting Bet

    The casinos i'm aware of that work with FinSoft are;

    Sporting Bet
    Sporting Index
    Singapore Pools
    Paddy Power
    Boyle
    Bet365
    Betfred
    Stan James
    SportsSpread.com
    Chrisholm Bookmakers
    Nordic Bet

    What we can say at the present time is that FinSoft have altered free play games to cause customers to win more and that a Realistic Hi/Lo game has been returning non-random results, but whether this is down to Realistic or FinSoft remains an open question.
    Last edited by thepogg; 8 January 2013 at 8:59 am.
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  13. #7
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    FYI from Betfred:

    Hi all,

    Apologies for the delay, but the analysis of significant amounts of data and liaising with multiple suppliers takes time. We have moved as quick as possible without jeopardising the accuracy of the results, which you will find below.

    Realistic Games provided the assets and rights to the Reel Deal game but SPIELO G2 developed the game for their operators and in doing so changed a number of core features. As such, it is not right to identify Realistic Games as responsible for how the game performs.
    On developing the game, SPEILO G2 developed two version: fixed odds and fixed price. The latter was in operation at Betfred. Fixed price meant that randomness could be introduced via a certified (GLI and TST approved) RNG and an RTP was introduced. In this case, at 96% RTP.
    The development of the game in this way resulted in SPELO G2 inadvertently running the fun version of the game on a fixed odds model and not a fixed price, and therefore it ran at a different RTP.
    Finally, during the deployment of the game to Betfred the wrong help file was associated with the game and reported the wrong RTP.


    Our initial offer of compensation in regard to the help file was made. However, having reviewed the analysis from SPEILO G2 and our own, we accept that Betfred Games has been running two versions of the same game for free and money play respectively and that is simply not acceptable. Based on that we will be refunding all losses on the game from when the game was introduced to Betfred, and will be removing other Realistic Games provided by SPIELO G2 to complete a review of their configuration, help files and RTP and until we’re confident in their accuracy. Compensation payments will be issued within 7 working days.

    We would like to take this opportunity to apologise to our players and to thank the OP and the Casinomeister forum as a whole for bringing this to our attention. The integrity of our games and operation is of paramount importance to Betfred and value any feedback that strengthens or corrects our operation.

    Finally, our logs and cooperation will remain open to authorised parties to further any part of this investigation.

    Kind regards,

    Aaron

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  15. #8
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    glad to see they handled it.

    really should check the playtech's in fun mode, I never played them for real but I did win 300,000 GBP in a short test session which made me wonder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slotplayer View Post
    glad to see they handled it.
    This hasn't been handled AT ALL. In fact, while Betfred's response places the blame squarely at the door of Finsoft they're openly saying that the game was intentionally rigged and they haven't addressed the issue with the free games either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot Jackobson
    Just to clarify, you are saying that you intended to operate a game that gave the impression of being a fair selection of cards, when it was not. That is, it was your intention to violate the principle that virtual objects act the same as the physical objects they represent. You are saying that Spielo created a game where the virtual and physical objects acted differently, in viloation of UKGC and GRA guidelines.

    You have now implicated Spielo in outright fraud, and said that you are complicit in it by not offering the right help file. That is, it appears you are saying that Betfred would have been satisfied offering these gaffed products, but for the wrong help file. In other words, Betfred is okay right now, today, with violating UKGC and GRA guidelines.

    Once the trust is broken that physical and virtual objects should behave the same, Betfred has violated the essential foundation on which its business is built.
    Eliot Jackobson's response to Betfred's statement.
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  21. #11
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    They should be reported to the relevant gaming commission. I thought these were independently verified? Clearly not.

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  23. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepogg View Post
    This hasn't been handled AT ALL. In fact, while Betfred's response places the blame squarely at the door of Finsoft they're openly saying that the game was intentionally rigged and they haven't addressed the issue with the free games either.
    No, I understand I've been following it from day one. There is always finger pointing.
    I only meant they've extended the refund of player losses to the introduction instead of the 6 months orignally stated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thepogg View Post
    This hasn't been handled AT ALL. In fact, while Betfred's response places the blame squarely at the door of Finsoft they're openly saying that the game was intentionally rigged and they haven't addressed the issue with the free games either.
    Both regulators - UKGC and GRA - are passing the buck saying that they're not responsible for game integrity.

    If regulators aren't responsible for ensuring players receive fair games, what exactly are they responsible for?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMoonCheese View Post
    They should be reported to the relevant gaming commission. I thought these were independently verified? Clearly not.
    No offence intended to you personally, but I can only reply...




    ...for the sheer crushing naivete of your post. You are aware that regulators process casino applications and collect fees and nothing else, right? Of course nothing was independently verified, because that's not what these people do.

    It's like one of the commentators chez Bailey saying that the UKGC has "dropped the ball" with this matter. They didn't. In order to drop the ball, you have to be holding it to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thepogg View Post
    If regulators aren't responsible for ensuring players receive fair games, what exactly are they responsible for?
    Lining their pockets with as much money as possible?

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  31. #16
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    Ohhh I see :O My eyes have been opened! But in some contries, like the USA, they are strictly regulated (or am I imagining things again?) I know the British government only wants the revenue from gaming, and doesn't care.
    Let's hope we see Fred's mug in the papers soon issuing a statement: "We only cheated because we thought we wouldn't get caught".
    Last edited by TheMoonCheese; 7 January 2013 at 4:08 pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMoonCheese View Post
    Ohhh I see :O My eyes have been opened! But in some contries, like the USA, they are strictly regulated (or am I imagining things again?) I know the British government only wants the revenue from gaming, and doesn't care.
    Let's hope we said Fred's mug in the papers soon issuing a statement: "We only cheated because we thought we wouldn't get caught".
    You made me Grin, from ear to ear...

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    Hi All,

    As stated over in casinomeister it appears to be only games taken through the intermediary Finsoft that have the issue, i would like to make it clear that we do NOT take our Realistic games through Finsoft but directly from Realistic themselves. We do not have a relationship with Finsoft.

    Thanks,

    Pauline
    Betvictor

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    I'll be doing a write up on this issue in a few days and i'll be sure to point that out Pauline - i'm really glad that not all the big providers have been sucked into this and apologise for raising BV's name unnecessarily in the CM thread.
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    Caruso is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMoonCheese View Post
    But in some contries, like the USA, they are strictly regulated (or am I imagining things again?)

    Possibly. In the US online gambling is quasi-illegal, by way of the UIGEA (yeah yeah, I know the ins and outs of that before anyone picks me up on it).

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