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  1. #21
    Sergej_AGR is offline Private Member
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    Shamed and regretful, I ask for forgiveness

  2. #22
    lots0 is offline Former Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_soc View Post
    I don't think there will be much to fear:
    a) 888 aren't the only ones making inroads- William Hill, Party and some others are also "making nice" with the department of justice there, so there will be some competition

    b) as best as I recall, at their peak in the first half of the previous decade, 888 didn't have an affiliate program - their traffic came from ads in places like Yahoo. (and around those years their casino had only some 9 games!) And since they opened their aff program they've earned a fair amount of criticism over how they run the program

    ...personally I don't think their sites are managed front-end to the same standards as other competitors, so all in all I wouldn't worry...
    I agree, there will be competition, but when outfits like WH, Party and 888 team up and put forward to the regulators(in Nevada and New Jersey) tough regulations that would forbid all advertising of any US licensed online casino by ANYONE but the casino it's self... It is rather obvious that they are all trying very hard to put affiliates in this niche out of business.

  3. #23
    Golan.WingateAff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    I'd go further and say be very wary of all affiliate programs managed out of Israel. All AMs across all programs know each other and the level of ethics is not on a par with programs elsewhere.
    justbookies, if I knew where you're from I could assume that people there are borderline racist and have bad interilationship ethics.. seriously, I kind get the feeling soon you'll say something like all jews are thieves or something.
    yes, you may have been hurt in the past by someone from israel and might want to avoid doing that but recommending everyone to avoid all israelis? are you serious?
    Israel is a very small country, people who stand in high places usually know of others, as I can see our CEO knows a lot of people in the industry, but that does not mean that I or any other affiliate managers in Israel are all connected or work together on the same rules of ethics (for better or for worse) different from other places in the world.. I'm not sure what kind of picture you have in your head when you think of Israel but I assure you it shouldnt be filled with crooks, as in percentage we're not far off from any other country
    there's still good, hard working people here.

  4. #24
    TheBoyMitchell is offline Private Member
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    Pulls up deckchair, opens popcorn....

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  6. #25
    tomgalanis is offline Non-sponsor Affiliate Program
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golan.WingateAff View Post
    justbookies, if I knew where you're from I could assume that people there are borderline racist and have bad interilationship ethics.. seriously, I kind get the feeling soon you'll say something like all jews are thieves or something.
    yes, you may have been hurt in the past by someone from israel and might want to avoid doing that but recommending everyone to avoid all israelis? are you serious?
    Israel is a very small country, people who stand in high places usually know of others, as I can see our CEO knows a lot of people in the industry, but that does not mean that I or any other affiliate managers in Israel are all connected or work together on the same rules of ethics (for better or for worse) different from other places in the world.. I'm not sure what kind of picture you have in your head when you think of Israel but I assure you it shouldnt be filled with crooks, as in percentage we're not far off from any other country
    there's still good, hard working people here.
    I think Justbookies' point is that there is a clear, although seldom admitted, link between many of the affiliate programs that operate from Israel or with ties there. This lack of admission only leads to differing levels of distrust (level dependent on experiences with tracking, payments etc I guess - which to be fair - every affiliate program has at some stage).

    The bottom line is this distrust has to be merited. Any idiot (or unfortunately unbeknownst newbies that fall into the trap) who thinks that sending a player on a $500 CPA/50%+ rev share deal to one casino and expects to see any commission before that player is massively cross-sold to a "partner" brand is nuts and deserves what they get if you ask me, but it's obviously a huge carrot for unknowing affiliates.

    But that isn't to say that there aren't solid, independent affiliate programs and trustworthy affiliate managers in Israel who run to 35% max rev share, $100 CPAs, operate negative carryover (no negative carryover doesn't work folks... think of a casino's margins folks...) and who ring-fence an affiliate's customer base and does everything they can to maximise a customer's value to the casino brand... as we all expect them to.

    At least I know a few honest Israeli affiliate managers. However, I would say that the majority of noise (positive and negative) is created by those that do operate in a big circle of player cross-selling and recycling and this can, understandable or not as the case may be, leads to stereotyping. Golan, you really ought to be calling out programs that do this to allow Wingate Affiliates to stand out from the crowd, or it's understandable that people put two and two together to get four. After all, it should give your program a competitive advantage and prevent you from having to offer unsustainable commission structures...

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBoyMitchell View Post
    Pulls up deckchair, opens popcorn....
    PLACE YOUR BETS! )
    lol, jk.. I'm not looking to fight anyone, I have good intentions just hope he understand what it sounds like

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBoyMitchell View Post
    Pulls up deckchair, opens popcorn....
    Golan, for whatever it's worth (see my avatar - Yossi Pollak), we're from the same place - but I do agree in principle with justbookies comment. A disproportionate number of well known operations which mistreat their affiliates/gamblers are based in/have a direct connection to Israel.

    There are a lot of shady casino operators in Israel (not just here, but surprisingly, from here), and as I suggested above, I think it's due to poor local-business regulation and local cronyism ("a friend brings a friend"): a large affiliate went to school with some guy who established a casino, or shared a seat in a tank with a guy who wrote a gambling software platform etc.; they speak the same language, think on the same wavelength...

    It's not a problem around religion or ethnicity, it's one of ethics and law enforcement. As long as the business laws here aren't stricter, there will continue to be nepotism, cronyism, conflicts of interest etc. - because it's "not un-allowed"...

    apropos an example of being in a small place where everyone knows everyone: the judge in the case of lucky18casino referenced Teddy Sagi as a former next door neighbor... and Teddy doesn't have a spotless record...

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  10. #28
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    I do agree that we have regulation problems in Israel but that does not mean people should be wary of all of us.. I don't think we have a bigger percentage of ethic issues in Israel because of the regulations problem. (I might not be educated enough about this matter to give a 100% accurate statement, I am aware of that) it's far from being black or white though. and people who are true crooks will continue to do so no matter what the law say.
    it might be problematic living in a small place, yes, it might cause conflict in interest but its not always the case, usually there's ways around it and things of this sort also happen in bigger places.
    I'm used to being stereotyped, I look different than most people, that certainly does NOT mean that all those who judge me are right. the truth is far from it. so if people wanna live in a lie, I hope they're happy with their "truth".. but I don't like seeing it being spread around. it's just wrong. people should have an educated opinion, not based on the experience of one.
    with that being said, we might be a crowd but all of us are also individuals and should be treated as such.
    even in hell you'll find angels.
    and I'm not against the original post that pointed out 888 for what they're doing, I just wanted to reply about bookies comment.

  11. #29
    humbucker is offline Private Member
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    From my experience, 888 are not that strong in betting, i reckon they mostly offer that to try and snap more potential poker and casino clients which is their core business. If your traffic is not casino / poker friendly, then 88 is probably not the right bookie for you.
    Kardash - http://clickitmedia.eu
    http://www.betmasters.gr - Greek Tips Portal and Virtual Betting Engine

  12. #30
    lots0 is offline Former Public Member
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    never mind...
    Last edited by lots0; 19 July 2012 at 9:35 am.

  13. #31
    Benitho is offline Private Member
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    If anyone wants their performance at 888 to improve more or less over night, bitch about it at one of the conferences while talking to one of the higher-up managers in attendance. I did that a while back and... - voila - ...

    THE VERY NEXT DAY (I KID YOU NOT !!!) my numbers from registrations to depositors to revenue shot up !

    As was to be expected, that only lasted a few weeks or so...

    Me being German, trust me when I say that I take extra care of what I say in regard to programs from Israel, but with all of them that I worked with in the past 10 years, there were very strange things going on sooner or later...

    Trouble with the programs from the UK, Austria or Malta so far (ever): 1 (the bewinners-fiasco)

    B.

  14. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benitho View Post
    I take extra care of what I say in regard to programs from Israel, but with all of them that I worked with in the past 10 years, there were very strange things going on sooner or later...
    if you work with someone for 10 years and nothing strange happen through that time - THAT is strange just saying.

  15. #33
    BHL
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    888play uses different affiliate software, no problems there. even had some revenue, which says a lot for a scratch brand.
    but uaffiliates.. don't know. made like 50$ so far. all players seem to be winning, cashing out and then never return. that's strange on its own. cause most of them were casino players. what player will stop playing somewhere when they have had a lot of luck?
    have the same problem with william hill, nothing but negative revenue. but that's mostly with the live dealer brands. so not as weird as it is with casino / slot players.

  16. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHL View Post
    888play uses different affiliate software, no problems there. even had some revenue, which says a lot for a scratch brand.
    but uaffiliates.. don't know. made like 50$ so far. all players seem to be winning, cashing out and then never return. that's strange on its own. cause most of them were casino players. what player will stop playing somewhere when they have had a lot of luck?
    have the same problem with william hill, nothing but negative revenue. but that's mostly with the live dealer brands. so not as weird as it is with casino / slot players.
    Actually it's not that strange but unfortunately I think most casinos are asleep at the wheel on this one (and maybe this issue deserves a thread of its own): there is a growing segment of players who opt to play without bonuses, so they can play traditionally restricted games like roulette. If playing with their own money, there's nothing in the terms and conditions of most casinos to prevent them from using "betting systems" down to and including playing one or two games per login, winning something and logging out (and then logging back in again to play one-two rounds and logging out once more).

    ...if they do that enough, they'll rack up a enough money to leave you in the hole... and if the casino has a negative carry over policy then it's a party

    Casinos need to offer some kind of cash incentive to those types of players so they have a way of hooking them and getting them to continue playing. Nearly all the casinos don't have any form of cashback (no-WR bonuses) to keep their players loyal.
    ---
    here's a test for everyone experiencing "winning players syndrome": ask your aff manager to check what % of your players are using/not using bonuses

  17. #35
    BHL
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_soc View Post
    Actually it's not that strange but unfortunately I think most casinos are asleep at the wheel on this one (and maybe this issue deserves a thread of its own): there is a growing segment of players who opt to play without bonuses, so they can play traditionally restricted games like roulette. If playing with their own money, there's nothing in the terms and conditions of most casinos to prevent them from using "betting systems" down to and including playing one or two games per login, winning something and logging out (and then logging back in again to play one-two rounds and logging out once more).

    ...if they do that enough, they'll rack up a enough money to leave you in the hole... and if the casino has a negative carry over policy then it's a party

    Casinos need to offer some kind of cash incentive to those types of players so they have a way of hooking them and getting them to continue playing. Nearly all the casinos don't have any form of cashback (no-WR bonuses) to keep their players loyal.
    ---
    here's a test for everyone experiencing "winning players syndrome": ask your aff manager to check what % of your players are using/not using bonuses
    They were all bonus players though.. Every single one of 'em. Luckily they don't have a negative carry over policy, so hope any of them go back to try and win more.. Until I see a change in this I'm not actively promoting those brands. I like it if a player wins, cause that's good for business.. But as far I know a real gambler always tries to win more.

  18. #36
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    I have been talking about the “Negative Carry Over Policy” issue with few people in the industry, over the past few days, and it raised a number of interesting questions… which are worth contemplating! (and maybe should be discussed in an independent thread)
    Here is an example, let's say a player wins 50k on the last few days of the month ( lets say 26 to 30 June 2012) and the player then loses 50k in the following month (let’s say 4 to 8 July 2012). If the affiliate was on a commission structure of 40% Rev-share, then the following situation would arise:

    The player breaks even – he won 50k in June 2012and lost 50k in July 2012
    The casino loses 20k which is paid to the affiliate as commission for July 2012
    The affiliate is up 20k commission for July 2012 as no carry forward from June 2012

    So now the questions that come to mind are:

    Do you really think a Casino is prepared to take a 20k loss by paying the affiliate without making it back directly from the affiliate?

    Does this then mean that the casino now takes the player and allocates it to a house account?

    Does this mean that the casino’s that do have “Negative Carry Over Policy” are more honest?

    If the affiliate is so affected by the “Negative Balance Policy” in the casino, why doesn’t the affiliate simply open another account at the casino and just wait for the negative balance in the old account to go positive again – as we all know most gamblers eventually lose their winnings J. This way everyone is paid according to real profits and losses and a fair and just relationship can continue with both the affiliate and the casino!

    It is said that: There is no greater satisfaction than achieving success through honest dealing and strict adherence to the view that, for you to gain, those you deal with should gain as well.

  19. #37
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    Does this then mean that the casino now takes the player and allocates it to a house account?
    At no point should this EVER be an option as that would be the program stealing the player from the affiliate.

    Ring fencing that single player is a different story however, and if in the terms can be understood.

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  20. #38
    lots0 is offline Former Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golan.WingateAff View Post
    I have been talking about the “Negative Carry Over Policy” issue with few people in the industry, over the past few days, and it raised a number of interesting questions… which are worth contemplating! (and maybe should be discussed in an independent thread)
    Here is an example, let's say a player wins 50k on the last few days of the month ( lets say 26 to 30 June 2012) and the player then loses 50k in the following month (let’s say 4 to 8 July 2012). If the affiliate was on a commission structure of 40% Rev-share, then the following situation would arise:

    The player breaks even – he won 50k in June 2012and lost 50k in July 2012
    The casino loses 20k which is paid to the affiliate as commission for July 2012
    The affiliate is up 20k commission for July 2012 as no carry forward from June 2012...
    In my experience with some casinos... this situation would be resolved by simply not paying the affiliate and re-tagging the player.

    Had that happen with deckmedia a few months ago.

    Payer deposited 500(no bonus) won 14k+. then the player withdrew 4k (still had a balance of about 10k) after that the player just disappeared from my stats... no withdrawals... no more play... just gone. That was three months ago.

    Currently this seems to be how some programs run out of that middle east country deal with big affiliate player wins.
    Last edited by lots0; 23 July 2012 at 4:55 pm.

  21. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
    Ring fencing that single player is a different story however, and if in the terms can be understood.
    That's quite close to negative carry over but a good suggestion overall though I think it's hard to follow up on it manually and not so sure how easily it can be done on the technical side.

    Quote Originally Posted by lots0 View Post
    Payer deposited 500(no bonus) won 14k+. then the player withdrew 4k (still had a balance of about 10k) after that the player just disappeared from my stats... no withdrawals... no more play... just gone. That was three months ago.
    Yeah, seems like that might be the untagging case.

  22. #40
    lots0 is offline Former Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golan.WingateAff View Post
    Yeah, seems like that might be the untagging case.
    Not the only case either, just the most recent.

    Affiliates are getting screwed right and left in this business and unfortunately most of this thieving comes from programs based out of the same geographical area.

    Shaving is rampant, re-tagging is now the normal procedure...

    It's just way too easy for programs to steal from affiliates... Even Google got caught re-tagging on their affiliates... Like I said, it's just way too easy to steal from us.

    Affiliates are forced into a position where we have to TRUST the programs... and our trust has been betrayed time after time, by program after program.

    Yes there are a few good programs, but they are very few and very far between and to be honest we have seen many 'good' programs recently go bad and start stealing from affiliates at the drop of a hat... so trusting even the so called 'good' programs becomes harder and harder.

    My Grandpa, used to tell me; "Never trust the guy that goes around telling everyone all the time how honest he is, he is the guy that will steal you blind."
    Not accusing anyone... just saying.

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