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  1. #41
    cass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lots0 View Post
    Not the only case either, just the most recent.

    Affiliates are getting screwed right and left in this business and unfortunately most of this thieving comes from programs based out of the same geographical area.

    Shaving is rampant, re-tagging is now the normal procedure...

    It's just way too easy for programs to steal from affiliates... Even Google got caught re-tagging on their affiliates... Like I said, it's just way too easy to steal from us.

    Affiliates are forced into a position where we have to TRUST the programs... and our trust has been betrayed time after time, by program after program.

    Yes there are a few good programs, but they are very few and very far between and to be honest we have seen many 'good' programs recently go bad and start stealing from affiliates at the drop of a hat... so trusting even the so called 'good' programs becomes harder and harder.

    My Grandpa, used to tell me; "Never trust the guy that goes around telling everyone all the time how honest he is, he is the guy that will steal you blind."
    Not accusing anyone... just saying.
    I agree with LotsO.

    888 approached us on numerous occasions to start promoting them again, I just never bothered to reply to their e-mails. There's very little decent programs left to promote and even the decent ones are circumspect. Besides I find the stats issue with most affiliate programs laughable, as partners I think we have very little to go on and must totally rely on the integrity of the affiliate programs we promote.

    A couple of affiliate programs based in Israel have raised many an eye brow of late. I'm not saying all of them are stealing from their affiliates and players, one must just visit some of the top gambling forums to gain some insight on this topic.

    One thing is for certain, if online gambling is legalised in the US again stealing from affiliates and players will be a thing of the past. I reckon this is the only country in the world where online gambling will be regulated 100%-this is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
    Last edited by cass; 24 July 2012 at 8:11 am.

  2. #42
    joert is offline Public Member
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    what programs are managed out of Israel besides 888bet and titanbet?

    Thank you.

  3. #43
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    William Hill has offices in Israel, and I think Winners do as well

  4. #44
    joert is offline Public Member
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    thanks Lowrisk.

  5. #45
    casinobonusguy is offline Private Member
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    You cannot judge a program based on their location as many programs located in South Africa ,Uk etc lead back to Israel .I feel obligated to post that my top earners are ALL based in Israel or the casinos are owned by Israeli .My best managers and friends are from Israel or Jewish ,you just cannot escape this in the Gaming Industry.
    As for regulation in USA protecting us from Shaving I doubt it as the technology will still be there and the costs for regulation will probably come out of our pockets with lower commissions etc.
    Finally as for 888.com I have a player relationship with them and no issues there but I do not work with them as an affiliate.I did prior to 2009 but like the rest of you the issues raised by my peers and my own poor results resulted in us pulling all their brands.
    If Regulation happened tomorrow I do not like any of the options we have right now.

  6. #46
    joert is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by casinobonusguy View Post
    You cannot judge a program based on their location as many programs located in South Africa ,Uk etc lead back to Israel .I feel obligated to post that my top earners are ALL based in Israel or the casinos are owned by Israeli .My best managers and friends are from Israel or Jewish ,you just cannot escape this in the Gaming Industry.
    As for regulation in USA protecting us from Shaving I doubt it as the technology will still be there and the costs for regulation will probably come out of our pockets with lower commissions etc.
    Finally as for 888.com I have a player relationship with them and no issues there but I do not work with them as an affiliate.I did prior to 2009 but like the rest of you the issues raised by my peers and my own poor results resulted in us pulling all their brands.
    If Regulation happened tomorrow I do not like any of the options we have right now.
    Can I please ask everyone to stop equating a questioning of anything Israeli as possibly being anti-semitic. There's a huge problem in places like the USA, where anyone questioning anything negative AT ALL about Israel is shot down and hounded by corrupt organisations like the Anti-defamation league; which basically intends for the world to believe that everything that comes out of Israel smells of roses. It covers up awful things that Israel does at times ( likes lots of countries do) and seeks to ruin people's reputations by labelling them as anti-semitic. Israel probably acts the tit on the world stage a bit more than many countries, but for the purposes of gambling affiliate programs, if there's a certain part of the world that's going to steam my money- I dont care what colour or creed they are, im going to avoid them, and I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT. However, i will NOT equate a few dodgy affiliate managers to the entire jewish race, and neither will most other people.

    The point i'm trying to make here is, that it would be refreshing if for once if someone questioned something bad in Israel, and didn't have people jumping to the country's defence based on religious and racial grounds. It's nothing to do with religion, or race if a bunch of corrupt w@nkers are robbing our money- it happens everywhere.

    other than that - cheers for the reply Casinobonusguy.

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  8. #47
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    I agree that we should stop the nonesense of slamming an affiliate program because of where they are.

    In fact where they are should never have come into the discussion to start with....PERIOD.

    The fault lies partly with me since I should have pushed to lock this thread the first indication that geography had ANY THING to do with it. (we try not to lock threads except when necessary....)

    We have seen both rogues and the good guys in many different countries, and where the office is located or the ethnicity of who runs the place has ZERO to do with whether the program is rogue or not.

    Further references to programs being bad just because they happen to be in any specific country will be locked.

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    If an affiliate program is not small affiliate friendly (especially small US Affiliate), then they are NOT Affiliate Friendly!

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  10. #48
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    I guess there is both sides of the fence on many affiliate programs. Take for instance Europartners for example. They have robbed hundreds of affiliates and scammed the industry huge if you take a look at their thread and do a historical report on them.

    As for me I have worked with 888 twice now - once several years ago which did not net us lots of revenue so we removed them.

    Then about a year ago we decided to work with them again and I have had 3 super duper affiliate managers work with us and spend hours of their time making custom banners and links for us and we have sent them 100s of players.

    I have no issues with 888 and find them one of the better ones to deal with in this industry to be honest.

    Stats may not be the best but I find whenever i have issue I email them and usually in several hours I get the responses I need and am satisfied.

    I am pretty pleased with 888 myself.

  11. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
    I agree that we should stop the nonesense of slamming an affiliate program because of where they are.

    In fact where they are should never have come into the discussion to start with....PERIOD.

    The fault lies partly with me since I should have pushed to lock this thread the first indication that geography had ANY THING to do with it. (we try not to lock threads except when necessary....)

    We have seen both rogues and the good guys in many different countries, and where the office is located or the ethnicity of who runs the place has ZERO to do with whether the program is rogue or not.

    Further references to programs being bad just because they happen to be in any specific country will be locked.

    Rick
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    There are a few observations I'd add based on what I'm reading so far in the thread.
    Beyond what I wrote above, about cronyism in this industry specifically in Israel, there is a large industry player here with many fingers in many pies - Playtech and its chief shareholder Teddy Sagi (48% holding). Although they're not the only example, they are a classic one: at one point only a few years ago, the key Playtech casino operators were directly or indirectly controlled by Sagi, and I believe many of the smaller Playtech operators based here are also directly associated with him.

    If the business at one of those operations is run in a certain 'style', it's very probable that the other related businesses will be run the same way.

    Example: very recently Playtech tried to buy certain social gaming properties - it turned out these were largely/totally owned by Sagi; stock market pressure caused that transaction to be cancelled - but many others before it succeeded: IOG, Cpays, Europartners and a few others. Some of the casino operators also have connections with Forex: some time ago, IOG's (today's affclub) management firm had a connection with Forexyard. Beyond that, many supporting services used by all these firms are provided by companies owned or affiliated with Sagi. It's one large circuit with many faces - and, what can we say - in his case there sadly are a lot of connections to Israel.

    You can't underestimate the scale of the influence an industry player like Sagi (and others of his size) can have. Like a octopus with many tentacles: those familiar with Rummy may be surprised to see that they're now associated with Winner...! What looks like a huge broad industry shrinks very quickly when you realize that very few players have many controlling interests.

    When many businesses doing the same exact thing are run by one controlling entity (eg. Sagi), there's little room for variation in how they will run, but their customers (gamblers/affiliates) will only have that contextual awareness if they know that they are all run by the same stakeholder.
    Last edited by the_soc; 25 July 2012 at 1:58 am.

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  13. #50
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    Totally understand where you're coming from, it's a tough business. I have much respect for how you see things, I'm sure you talk from experience and I am sorry that this is what the industry has come to.
    With that said, I hope you can also see the other side of things - at least on our end I can see a lot of affiliates just trying to get high CPA deals even though they know their traffic isn't worth that much.. not to mention non-performance based marketing plans (CPC/CPM), we've seen many of those recently that are just not profitable, and we're considering putting a hold on those all-together.

  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by joert View Post
    The point i'm trying to make here is, that it would be refreshing if for once if someone questioned something bad in Israel, and didn't have people jumping to the country's defence based on religious and racial grounds. It's nothing to do with religion, or race if a bunch of corrupt w@nkers are robbing our money- it happens everywhere.
    So basically what you wrote at first is you think it's right to point out Israel out of all places but then you also say it happens everywhere? I don't really get you.

  15. #52
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    The affiliate-casino industry is very much a trust relationship, whereby (for legitimate reasons) the casino doesn't reveal much information to the affiliate. However, because it's such a trust based relationship, knowing who the casino owner is and what his background is - even where he is based - can and should play a key role in an affiliate's decision whether to do business with him...

    ...for example I know the person who established the Wingate program has some first-hand knowledge of casino tropez/titan If I know something about his work ethic (this is entirely hypothetical), this would influence my decision to work "with him" at Wingate...

    I'll say it plainly, when Betfair (Playtech software) had it's problems a few years back - totally in contrast to their reputation till then - I really thought their management had moved into the hands of someone related to Sagi, just because based on past history, there was something in their 'new' style of management that reminded me of other operators connected to him... Betfair + Playtech could equal Sagi; Playtech on a UK brand + an Israel connection could very well be a connection to Sagi... That's where the issue of 'location' can be an influential factor for affiliates. The "Israeli connection" is a means and not an end (eg. it's not an issue related to anti-Semitism).
    Last edited by the_soc; 25 July 2012 at 3:47 am.

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  17. #53
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    It is a known fact that Laurent ran Tropez/Titan affiliate program/CasinoPartners which later became Europartners, he left the group in December 2006 after bringing the program to be one of the most successful and trusted places for affiliates and anything that happened after that time shouldn't be directed at him as responsible, so I'm not quite sure what exactly you're trying to say.

  18. #54
    joert is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
    I agree that we should stop the nonesense of slamming an affiliate program because of where they are.

    In fact where they are should never have come into the discussion to start with....PERIOD.

    The fault lies partly with me since I should have pushed to lock this thread the first indication that geography had ANY THING to do with it. (we try not to lock threads except when necessary....)

    We have seen both rogues and the good guys in many different countries, and where the office is located or the ethnicity of who runs the place has ZERO to do with whether the program is rogue or not.

    Further references to programs being bad just because they happen to be in any specific country will be locked.

    Rick
    Universal4
    I have to say i disagree with this, just my opinion. My whole point was that we shouldn't allow location to influence whether we can or can not talk about a certain area. The whole point here is that a number of affiliates run out of the same location are possibly doing something dodgy. If it wasn't Israel we were talking about (ie, uk/Ireland or whatever), then there would be no problem. But because its Israel, the thread gets special status. If affiliate programs in Israel are bad- then so be it we should talk about it- it's not going to stop me hanging out with my Jewish friends.

    I think the mature and adult approach here is to let the thread go on once it is mature and impartial- locking it is just another symptom of the pass anything negative from Israel always gets because people are afraid to discuss anything negative about them, lest they be labelled anti-semitic by disgraceful organisational attitudes such as those from the ADL. And for what its worth, my friends from israel generally agree with this.

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  20. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golan.WingateAff View Post
    So basically what you wrote at first is you think it's right to point out Israel out of all places but then you also say it happens everywhere? I don't really get you.
    Let me clarify ( i think it was pretty clear already, but i'll try again).

    Whenever anything in Israel is criticised- people are so quick to jump down their throat, and imply that all jewish people are not bad, etc etc. and we shouldn't single out Israel because its israel. In other words, implications of anti-semitism are made straight off the bat in most cases. Veiled implications, but implications nonetheless.

    My point is, that im sick of that ( from foreign policy criticisms, right down to a bunch of affiliate operations being dodgy).

    If it's relevant, then I want to talk about it, and I want to hear people's views. It wont make me hate Israel, and it wont make me anti-semitic. I don't live in the US, but I used to, and its almost impossible to have a candid conversation in a public forum about anything Israeli, or Israel related, as everyone is afriad that the likes of teh anti-defamation league will hang them out to dry as being nazi sympathisers.

    If alot of people are having problems with Israeli affiliate programs, then please dont try to stifle debate like you did. Let the conversation flow, lets get both sides of the story, without someone jumping in and mentioning the word Jewish . No one mentioned the word Jewish until (possibly you?) did. We only want to know about bad programs in Israel. Israel, turkey, Fiji, Finland....we want to know about them. Do you think if we found a bad set of programs in Finland, someone would come on here and say " all Finnish people aren't bad everyone!"??? No they wouldn't, because that would be silly and irrelevant. Just like telling us Jewish people aren't all bad when we're talking about dodgy affiliate programs run out of some business park in Telaviv.

    Christ on a bike!

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  22. #56
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    Mind you, I only used jews as an example for racism but on the same note could've used any other part of society that's being discriminated against.
    I don't mind talking about anything negative related to Israel, I am aware that Israel is far from perfect.. but there's a (big) difference between talking about something bad that happened in a specific location and saying that everyone should dodge *all* the people who live there (which was what I originally complained about)
    and if you'll make a claim that people should dodge all affiliate programs from finland, yes I will find that offensive to a certain extent, not silly at all, I don't think that's right.
    Yes, we are here to warn other about specific bad programs, that is something I do believe should be done. but again there's a difference between making a specific accusation and making a general irrelevant statement against some people.

  23. #57
    lots0 is offline Former Public Member
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    What is with all this racism crap?

    Don't people who are not Jewish live in Israel too?

    Fact is most of the real bad programs in the online casino business are run out of Israel... Not because of the state religion... but because the laws in Israel allow this kind of business activity without any regulation or oversight, unlike most other countries in the World.

    Seems to me the raciest crap is brought up to stifle and/or side track any legitimate discussion of a real legitimate issue in this business.


    P.S. I am an Atheist. I could care less what anyone's Religion is or what Religion people like or don't like... This is just Business to me.
    Last edited by lots0; 25 July 2012 at 10:42 am.

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  25. #58
    theGman is offline Public Member
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    Mind you, I only used jews as an example for racism but on the same note could've used any other part of society that's being discriminated against.
    I don't mind talking about anything negative related to Israel, I am aware that Israel is far from perfect.. but there's a (big) difference between talking about something bad that happened in a specific location and saying that everyone should dodge *all* the people who live there (which was what I originally complained about)
    and if you'll make a claim that people should dodge all affiliate programs from finland, yes I will find that offensive to a certain extent, not silly at all, I don't think that's right.
    Yes, we are here to warn other about specific bad programs, that is something I do believe should be done. but again there's a difference between making a specific accusation and making a general irrelevant statement against some people.
    Golan i think its pretty clear what Joert is getting at and i think your constant responses re Jews and Rascism are getting a tad old now.

    If you have been in this industry as long as we have and have been shafted as many time as we have speifically by programs running out of Israel - specifically on the Playtech platform then i think that is a valid point to raise.

    To say beware of Affiliate programs run out of Israel is not being rascist or anti semitic or anything else. It is merely a fact that can be pointed to using experiences that all of us have endured.

    You just dont seem to understand how the man feels. Perhaps you should try and send traffic to a Casino and then be told - sorry were not going to pay you that $10k ( CPAYS did that to me ) , or see highrollers that had been playing for years disappear after another affiliate program ( AffClub did that to me ) took over management of the previous program.

    I dont see how you correlate his original statement with being rascist or anti semitic and truth be told this whole convo is getting a bit much.

    In fact these days you have to watch all programs like hawks , which is why i choose to do business with UK licensed entities that are run out of the UK. Much better for the stress levels and communication is a lot easier.

  26. #59
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    This thread seems to have turned away from the main topics being raised, and towards a discussion of what does and does not constitute racism. On that basis, there was a decision to close this thread by those moderators involved in trying to keep the forums civil. While I don't think this discussion has gone over the edge, I think it has been close.

    I do think there is a lot of very good information in this thread, and if anyone has any additional information to add that will help members know more about experiences with specific affiliate programs or operators that belongs in this thread, or other information the seems important to post here, just send me a pm with what you would like to say and I will either add the post in this thread myself, or unlock the thread for continued appropriate discussion, or suggest the specific point being raised be made in a new thread as the case may be.

    Michael
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    Resources for Affiliates: iGamingDirectory.com, iGamingAffiliatePrograms.com, GamingMeets.com

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