Affiliate Club - Predatory Terms Change (resolved)

[Webzcas]

Bottom line is John that you ( Affiliate Club ) are changing your contract with us ( Affiliates ) to suit you. You see there is an BIG issue of trust here. What is to stop you from doing a Grand Prive in the future which by following your logic, could happen?

Facts are as Simmo has stated. Programs have tried this before and they soon realised it was a BIG mistake. If you have got your sums wrong, then change your commission structure.

But if I and many many many other affiliates are going to promote you, then if we refer even 1 player to you, we should have a lifetime rev share commission payment, regardless of how many future players we put through to you.

You see, what if I put through a whale to one of your casinos who then generated over a course of 2 years $500,000? But yet as I no longer refer any new players to you under your new terms I would lose the commission from that whale. You have to be kidding me right? But that is what you are saying.

Your T & C change is predatory as it stands, is not good for affiliates and as such whilst it remains in place welcome to my Webmasters Resource page - whereby later today I will be detailing what your program has just done. Therefore any unsuspecting webmasters that visit my site, will know full well what Affiliate Club have just done.

Furthermore I will also be listing all the casinos your program represents to my BlackListed Online Casinos page. BTW that page has extremely good rankings on google for terms such as Rogue Casinos and Blacklisted Online Casinos.

You want exposure on my sites? Well you have got it!

I just feel sorry for the likes of Chris. He is a good guy and shouldn't have to be put in this position. I really hope Affiliate Club sees the light and realises what damage it is doing to it's brands by taking the stance it is taking.

[kwblue]

Hi John,

Speaking for AGD, we have seen this predatory term enacted over and over with EXACTLY the same 'argument' from affiliate programs. Simmo and KK are correct - each and every program eventually reverted terms. There are many reasons they did this, but losing affiliates was certainly a big one.

AGD Rules: As long as you have this retroactive term, you will be marked as a rogue operation (Retroactively affecting a contract is not just rogue, it is theft, which is in most countries illegal).

AGD Rules: When Affiliate Club finally reverts this term back to an affliate-friendly term, there will be a period of time whereby the program will be marked with a warning. This warning ensures that affiliates are aware of the recent terms change. This 'warning period' is equal to the amount of time you keep your predatory term.

Now - The reason this term is predatory and why affiliates should no longer trust Affiliate Club:

1. As stated previously, if I (as your partner) deliver you a player (it does not matter if that player is a whale or a small everyday player) I should be paid commissions on the lifetime of that player. As a partner I DELIVERED. It does not matter that I delivered 2 months ago or 6 months ago. Without me, the affiliate, you would not have that player at all and would have that much less profit.

2. Retroactive terms. Changing of contracts is illegal in most countries. This breach is very serious and shows that Affiliate Club cares not for it's 'partnership' but only for their bottom line.


Those 2 are enough for affiliates to not want to deal with your organization anymore. At this point, Affiliate Club will be placed into the roguehouse at AGD. That is NOT something we do lightly... you should see that by the groups you have surrounded yourselves with there


Please, please.... listen to us.. your affiliate base and partners. You have time to change this.

[John-AffiliateClub]

Hi Webcaz,

I said it before and I’ll say it again.. we will review all issues case by case. Take your potential issue about the whale..perfect example for a separate review.

Our goal is to drive business not kill it .. there are exceptions for everything.

If you want to black list us there is nothing I can do but you were right about Chris.. he’s got absolutely nothing to do with this what so ever.

Regards

John Ryott

[Webzcas]

i said it before and i’ll say it again.. We will review all issues case by case. Take your potential issue about the whale..perfect example for a separate review.

how can we trust you??!!!

[kwblue]

Just as another note that I forgot in my previous post...

Reaching into your affiliate's pockets is not the way to foster trust nor to increase profits.

[John-AffiliateClub]

Hi again.

I've been heading up affiliate programs since 2002 and for those who don’t know me I ran the Affiliate programs for Casino Euro, Cherry, Betsson to name a few so personally I would ask around...

I willing to bet my reputation that you won’t find a single affiliate who can say they ever got cheated by me or anyone in my past or previous teams.

Deal directly with me and you’ll find out like so many before you that I’m a very reasonable person… again, case by case.

I’m not going to beg you not to blacklist our casinos but what you could do is take my word for what I stated above until proven wrong.

Regards

John ryott

[Webzcas]

John,

I have no problem with your own reputation. I have a problem with the reputation affiliate club is getting with this move though.

Predatory and retroative changes to Terms and Conditions do not garner trust and understanding. KWBlue summed it up pretty well:

2. Retroactive terms. Changing of contracts is illegal in most countries. This breach is very serious and shows that Affiliate Club cares not for it's 'partnership' but only for their bottom line.

I will ensure my traffic is sent to programs who I can and do trust.

[John-AffiliateClub]

Still comes down to trust since these terms are here to stay.

If you'll take my word for the case by case review you won’t have a problem..that’s a promise. I would look pretty stupid if I didn’t honor this discussing it in public and all?.

I suggest you both ad me to your skype… not saying we shouldn’t continue the discussion here but it might be easier if more than one want to have a
poke at me at the same time

Regards

John Ryott

[Webzcas]

Still comes down to trust since these terms are here to stay.

That's fine, it just means I WILL NEVER promote you, as I cannot trust Affiliate Club to make further changes in the future.

I suggest you both ad me to your skype… not saying we shouldn’t continue the discussion here but it might be easier if more than one want to have a
poke at me at the same time

So you feel that you are above public criticism on what is the leading Gambling Webmaster Forum when you decide to introduce a stupid. damaging and predatory clause into your terms and conditions? Give me a break.

[thepokerkeep]

Thankfully I don't promote any of the affected properties but this type of action is clearly not in the best interest of anyone. There are other, more affiliate friendly ways to generate revenues such as adding more tiers to the commission structure. Performance based incentives are generally accepted as fair and reasonable by all parties.

This will only drive small/upstart webmasters away from your program and straight to your competition. The negative impact from this announcement will surely offset any potential gains for you. Bad business all round.

[thepokerkeep]

I see you need to change your pages to reflect the new policy as well:

Commission Plans


Up to 50% Lifetime Revenue Share with No Negative Carry-Over!

For all the players you refer, AffiliateClub.com pays you up to 50% of revenue that they generate for life.

Remember, negative balances are NOT carried over meaning you can't lose!

This is a tad misleading to new affiliates.

[Engineer]

We simply believe that an affiliate partnership is a two way street and that we should be able to reserve ourselves the rights to reimburse only partners that are actively promoting us.

John,

"Promotion" should not be measured by the number of new depositing players. Affiliates have absolutely no control over whether players can deposit at the casino -- that is entirely in your hands. I am confused as to why my earnings would be held hostage based on something you control (i.e. conversions and processing). Do you see where I'm coming from?

If you would delete the depositing player requirement from the T&Cs, that would help a lot. I can send visitors, but I can't make people deposit.

If you insist on having an unattractive minimum depositing player clause in your new T&Cs, fine, -- but please don't make it retroactive. If you enforce it retroactively, most affiliates will view that as a form of theft, and you'll lose their trust forever.

My agreement with Affiliate Club was that I would be paid a percentage of profits for the life of the player, and I expect that agreement to be honored, at least for the existing players I have there.

If your boss at Affiliate Club came to you one day and told you that you wouldn't be paid until you signed up at least 1 profitable affiliate, how would you react? Presumably you'd start looking for a new job immediately (I certainly would).

We've been down this road before with other programs, and all of them have at least amended their new terms so that they weren't retroactive. The most recent case involves Best Casino Partner. First they eliminated the retroactive part (since that was clearly unacceptable), and then recently, when their business started to suffer, they completely removed the predatory terms to make the program as competitive and attractive to new affiliates again.

Please, I urge you to do right by your existing affiliates and at least make these new T&Cs applicable only to affiliates who signed up after a certain date such as today or tomorrow.

Summing up my suggestions:

1. Change the minimum depositing player requirement to something like "clicks" or "visitors."
2. Apply the new T&Cs (including any minimum clicks or vistors) only to affiliates who signed up after today or tomorrow or some other future date.

Thanks for listening. I hope you'll come back with some good news soon.

[Simmo!]

Tough on the affclub affiliate team too. Chris, Claire and Katerina are top notch but if they work to targets, then the target just got a lot smaller. And they are the ones in the firing line too at conferences and stuff

[joeyl]

I doubt this aff manager has a job for life at this firm, judging by how many other previous jobs he noted.

Anyway, I edit a horseracing blog. If I target a bookie for Cheltenham and the Grand National, bring in 100 players over these jumps racing festivals, then put the bookies links back somewhere less prominent, I "could" lose my 100 players if the aff manager in the hotseat at that time can cut costs by pointing to this silly rule?

I don't need Skype to say i'll not be targeting Cheltenham etc with bookies who have this rule.

Q: What constitutes a webmaster who deserves not to get paid because he's stopped puishing firm x or y at the present moment. Examples please.

[itay]

just out of curiosity and to put all on the table: out of all of the ones posting here, who is really actively promoting affiliate club and bringing results? who is not doing anything with them?

[Engineer]

Before the T&C change, I was doing my best to promote Casino Club on several of my sites. I didn't have a big player base yet, but some of the players that I did refer made healthy deposits. The player value at Casino Club was high -- higher than 90% of the other casinos I have promoted in the past.

I was planning to promote their newest brand, Slots Club (I already grabbed banners and started a review), but I won't send any players there if I think that at some point my earnings will be held hostage because Slots Club isn't converting my traffic at some point in the future.

Even if I wasn't working with Affiliate Club, I think it's important that all affiliate programs honor the agreements they make with their affiliates. The industry standard is that if changes are made to an agreement, the change isn't applied retroactively if the change will negatively affect the affiliate.

[Webzcas]

just out of curiosity and to put all on the table: out of all of the ones posting here, who is really actively promoting affiliate club and bringing results? who is not doing anything with them?

I had just signed up with them last week as I have known Chris since when I lived in Gibraltar and he is a good affiliate manager.

Thankfully I haven't promoted their brands yet. So I have had a lucky escape. Kudos to Guard Dog and the service his site provides.

Why do you ask Itay, are you thinking of adding them to B4Playing? I guess they would fit right in

[Dealer Dan]

Thanks for the great work kwblue. Was planning on adding their properties to my sites this month, but based on the T&C change I'll no longer be promoting them. Have Affiliate Club even notified affiliates of this change at all via newsletter, their website, forum threads etc(not including responding to this one)? Because if not that's just as bad as these new terms.

[itay]

they fit to us as we are good people!

and I was asking as I am in this industry for almost day 1 and I've seen so many people bitching about other people (personally and business wise) without even knowing them (personally and business wise)... so by the way you are saying, I guess you are in this group...and to the point...if you havent promoted and dont want to maybe you are not here for the long term and wants to get advantage of the vendors you are working with...good for you and them.

Itay
PS - dont bother to reply me as I've probably wont see the reply.

[Webzcas]

Itay your reputation certainly precedes you. That is why it is of no surprise to me that you support predatory terms.

PS - dont bother to reply me as I've probably wont see the reply.

I bet you do.