AFFILIATE THIEF: Plain & Simple

[Fergie]

As a poker affiliate, I find this to be an interesting and important discussion.

There is one disturbing fact: PSORG's site instructs players to uninstall pokerroom software, delete cookies, etc.

Although the argument involving Bob, where Bob's site has credit for the download, but not signing up and playing, may have some merit because the rake-back site gave the player incentive to sign up and deposit money, this question of who should be credited for the player has been debated ad nausium by affiliates. We aren't going to solve this dilemma in this thread.

I strongly feel that, if PSORG's intentions were to avoid any likelihood of player theft, then he would omit the uninstall instruction, etc., on his site, and take his chances with cookies like the rest of us.

[mojo]

I have read this thread and not being a poker affiliate I just can't understand how this works.

In the world of casinos, even if you uninstall and reinstall, clear cookies..whatever, you are still in the casino system and when you re-sign up you have then opened multiple accounts. That's fine if you can get away with it but you won't have any luck cashing out. There was one I played at long ago and lost my info. I made sure to write the casino before I opened a new account (and save the mail). There are issues of cookies - 30/60/90 day - but nothing like I see here. I would never tell a player to uninstall!

From what I gather from this thread, poker rooms don't care if the player opens multiple accounts and this practice is allowed? Or am I way off..
?

[Former Member 14]

Hi all,

I did have a rather scathing post here, but I've decided after having my faults pointed out to me by TheGooner that anything I say now just keeps making me look foolish. Which take away the reasons for my first couple of posts to the thread.

If I've offended anyone I apologise.


Cheers



Dave

[Fergie]

I have read this thread and not being a poker affiliate I just can't understand how this works.

In the world of casinos, even if you uninstall and reinstall, clear cookies..whatever, you are still in the casino system and when you re-sign up you have then opened multiple accounts. That's fine if you can get away with it but you won't have any luck cashing out. There was one I played at long ago and lost my info. I made sure to write the casino before I opened a new account (and save the mail). There are issues of cookies - 30/60/90 day - but nothing like I see here. I would never tell a player to uninstall!

I'm not an expert at how players get away with this. One way, I believe, involves using a different email address and payment method, so you go undetected. I've never heard of a poker room requesting faxed proof of I.D., either.

I'm not up on the fine points, though.

[ck8795]

Hey Mojp mpst affiliates I have seen for poker dont tell players to uninstall at all, and that vast majority of them dont even mention anything about cookies to their players unless they are on some particular program, its the odd ones who do this and they normally are reported or stopped by the major rooms.

[pgaming]

Come on folks there is more to it than uninstall and delete cookies we should all know that? But then again maybe it is different for Poker Rooms. Don't know never played.

greek39

[Henrik - GNUF]

Hi all, it feels like people are really trying to look on it from the wrong side. Yes if he promotes multiple accounts it should be stopped and the AM should contact the affiliate directly and explain that it is not acceptable<o></o>

In this instance it could be that the webmaster want to make sure that players who have just downloaded the software to check it out but not made an account or players that have visited the site earlier but never downloaded it actually get connected to the rake back deal so that they get what they are offered from the site.<o></o>
<o></o>
It actually never says anything about having a prior account.

If you create multiple accounts there are more ways then email and payment methods to track that. Most sites are strict on multiple accounts and would in most instances not accept it.

So there might be a brighter look at it...

What the actual case is, is hard to tell.
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--><o></o>
Just thought I would give another view on it.<o></o>
<o>
</o>

[thepokerkeep]

As a poker player and poker affiliate, the main problem i see with the site in question is the fact that they didn't specify that their offer/program was for new players only.
The way the information was worded, it appeared that they were soliciting current as well as new players which would be against most affiliate TOS.
As long as they add a sentence explaining they are soliciting "new depositing players" for their rake program, there is really nothing wrong with what they're doing.

[ck8795]

Actually I cant see any of the "honest" rooms allowing it whether he adds a sentance in it or not. I think telling a player to remove the software and than reinstall it is against the rules no matter how you phrase it. Dont quote me on it but I am pretty sure it would still be deemed unethical.

There must be some AM's here who can chime into this one and give their two cents on what is allowed and what isnt considering it is such a borderline issue

[pokertramp]

I am personally sickened by these types of sites. I just emailed the affiliate groups I work with that are listed and gave them a piece of my mind. I'm hoping some of you do the same

[PSORG]

As a poker affiliate, I find this to be an interesting and important discussion.

There is one disturbing fact: PSORG's site instructs players to uninstall pokerroom software, delete cookies, etc.

Although the argument involving Bob, where Bob's site has credit for the download, but not signing up and playing, may have some merit because the rake-back site gave the player incentive to sign up and deposit money, this question of who should be credited for the player has been debated ad nausium by affiliates. We aren't going to solve this dilemma in this thread.

I strongly feel that, if PSORG's intentions were to avoid any likelihood of player theft, then he would omit the uninstall instruction, etc., on his site, and take his chances with cookies like the rest of us.

Heya, while I respect your opinion, you have to understand that in the end, I answer to my bill collectors. I don't take 'chances' with my income.

If a player wants to sign up through me, I want to make dead sure he does. If that means ticking off a few other affiliates who are under the wrong impression that I'm trying to steal current real money players, that's just the way it'll have to be.

I think at fault here is a lack of understanding for how aggressively poker sites block multiple accounts. Your players are safe.

Finally, while I'm fine with making some changes to avoid ethical arguments, I will not damage my position in the market to satisfy competitors (which in reality, we all are to some degree). Check the pages from probably the #1 rakeback affiliate.

http://www.raketherake.com/PokerFullTilt.html

Every rakeback affiliate instructions are the same. Email your managers all you want. You'll get little to no result. Rakeback affiliates dominate the top 20 affiliates for most every poker site. Meanwhile poker sites love the arrangement, since they've got a "VIP program" that is coming out of the affiliate's income. They don't like the idea of running a VIP program that pays a player 30% rakeback, meanwhile they're also giving that player's referring affiliate 30% too!

You'll be better served finding your niche (whether you choose rakeback or not is up to you), and then busting your tail to excel at it. There's plenty of $$ to be made in other online gambling niches besides rakeback. If you've got deep pockets, you can jump into rakeback now and do fine. (Check rakebrain.com owned by PokerListings.com I believe. Proof that deep pockets can get you into any niche you want).

I just can't stress how much of a total waste of time it is to email an affiliate manager complaining about a top 20 affiliate for their site, about a non-issue, since real money players tracked to one affiliate can't be tracked to another.

I'm getting back to work. Hope the rest of you can do the same. ;]

Keith

[pokertramp]

It's people like you that give the gambling webmasters a bad name, it's disgusting that you would screw over every affiliate just to make a buck.
I answer to the bill collectors too, but I would never "steal" players from other affiliates. You're right there's plenty of money to be made in this business and if you can't do it fairly you deserve the bad publicity.

[thepokerkeep]

Heya, while I respect your opinion, you have to understand that in the end, I answer to my bill collectors. I don't take 'chances' with my income.

If a player wants to sign up through me, I want to make dead sure he does. If that means ticking off a few other affiliates who are under the wrong impression that I'm trying to steal current real money players, that's just the way it'll have to be.

I think at fault here is a lack of understanding for how aggressively poker sites block multiple accounts. Your players are safe.

Finally, while I'm fine with making some changes to avoid ethical arguments, I will not damage my position in the market to satisfy competitors (which in reality, we all are to some degree). Check the pages from probably the #1 rakeback affiliate.

http://www.raketherake.com/PokerFullTilt.html

Every rakeback affiliate instructions are the same. Email your managers all you want. You'll get little to no result. Rakeback affiliates dominate the top 20 affiliates for most every poker site. Meanwhile poker sites love the arrangement, since they've got a "VIP program" that is coming out of the affiliate's income. They don't like the idea of running a VIP program that pays a player 30% rakeback, meanwhile they're also giving that player's referring affiliate 30% too!

You'll be better served finding your niche (whether you choose rakeback or not is up to you), and then busting your tail to excel at it. There's plenty of $$ to be made in other online gambling niches besides rakeback. If you've got deep pockets, you can jump into rakeback now and do fine. (Check rakebrain.com owned by PokerListings.com I believe. Proof that deep pockets can get you into any niche you want).

I just can't stress how much of a total waste of time it is to email an affiliate manager complaining about a top 20 affiliate for their site, about a non-issue, since real money players tracked to one affiliate can't be tracked to another.

I'm getting back to work. Hope the rest of you can do the same. ;]

Keith

I did as you suggested and found this on RakeBrains site... PLEASE NOTE: You will NOT be able to get rakeback if you already have an existing Full Tilt Poker account, or if you fail to use the link provided below when you download the software.

They also do not suggest deleting cookies.

Here's the link... http://www.rakebrain.com/full-tilt-poker.php

It appears that raketherake follows the same policy as you do and does suggest deleting cookies, etc...

[pokertramp]

That's exactly right, some sites are ethical and have morals while others are scum suckers. It's like that in every business, this has nothing to do with competition, I'm happy to have to compete for the business with my fellow webmasters. It's going about things the right way, I guess some of us have class and some of us don't.

[PSORG]

It's people like you that give the gambling webmasters a bad name, it's disgusting that you would screw over every affiliate just to make a buck.
I answer to the bill collectors too, but I would never "steal" players from other affiliates. You're right there's plenty of money to be made in this business and if you can't do it fairly you deserve the bad publicity.

PokerKeep : cut to the chase. Email RakeBrain and tell them you have a play money account at Full Tilt, but have never deposited. See what their instructions are in their reply. Care to make a friendly wager?

Tramp : Do you truly not understand what I'm saying, or are you just not reading my posts because you're in such a hurry to make your own?

Depositing players can't be untracked from one affiliate and then setup through another. You're basing your entire tirade on this unfounded belief, are you not?

The only gripe that is valid is the somewhat rare event that a player clicks your link, and then later decides to sign up/deposit through me. The fair thing would be for us both to share the income from this player since you initially sent him to the room, and it was my offer that coaxed him to sign up. Affiliate programs don't let you share players though, so someone has to lose.

It's not anymore fair for you to get credit for a player who does not want to sign up through you, did not intend to sign up through, and will not continue to play for you in the future, even if you do get the initial credit. Tack on the fact that if not for my rakeback offer, he may not have ever deposited in the first place.

Who gets credit is something we'll have to agree to disagree on. I doubt I convince you, and you certainly won't convince me, and I don't see poker rooms putting in a "shared revenue plan" for two affiliates who should both get partial credit for a real money player.

Rant, rave and call me classless all you want. When you calm down and look at things rationally, it'll help.

[pokertramp]

Depositing players can't be untracked from one affiliate and then setup through another. You're basing your entire tirade on this unfounded belief, are you not?

Forget the depositing players. What about the ones that signed up through me and played for fun for a month and now want to deposit, but they get wind of your site and learn how to uninstall and delete the cookies for a "better offer". I should absolutely be the affiliate to make the commissions on that player for life. I got them to install the software in the first place.

[Former Member 14]

Hi all,

Understandably people have every right to be pissed.

I don't promote poker because I don't play poker so I leave the promotion of poker to those that do.

However, in so far as casino players all my links, banners in fact any marketing material I use (Microgaming, RTG, Boss media, Playtech...blah..blah..blah) either contains my aff link or it's embedded into the URL or the flash marketing component.

I would assume that poker operates in similar manner, does it not?

(Some software dynamically tags my aff ID into the downloaded software itself.)


Although back ends are vastly different & probably the way the software installs on a PC is too, but I can say with confidence that with casino software it takes more than just clearing a browser cache and un-installing software to clean a PC of casino software.

I'm not going to go into details here for obvious reasons, but, in the case of Microgaming & Playtech for example there is more than a couple of registry entries as well as other core OS anti-fraud safe guards.

Unless you know exactly what your doing, a fresh install of your OS is about the only way to get around this security measure.

Besides, even if a player signs up as a free play guest account, that player is permanently tagged with my affiliate ID.

Edit: Least to mention if they sign-up as a depositing player I have for life also.

Again unless poker software is different.

If it is different and its as easy as deleting a couple of cookies and un-installing software. To me the BIG ISSUE here needs to be addressed at the source.

That is with the poker affiliate programs that allow their software, your affiliate tag, to be so easily dissociated to XYZ poker player.

IMHO focusing your attention, frustrations and anger on one affiliate who is choosing to take advantage of a loop hole is not going to address the issue at hand.

If you all feel this strongly about this matter (which it seems most do) then contact the poker affiliate programs directly and voice your feelings.

To put it another way, if nothing chances nothing changes.

As therapeutic as it maybe for you to give PSORG a good roasting, it's not going to change the fact that this practise or that the aff tagging issue is still operational.

Just some food for thought.



Cheers



Dave

[pokertramp]

Yep, you make sense Dave, and I have already contacted all the rooms I see on these sites and so far most of them say they will have their rooms removed or tell the affiliate they must remove the "uninstall" instructions from their site.
I just feel that it is not an honest way to do business, anyone that thinks it's honest to even try and screw other affiliates has no morals or conscience.
I'm sure I've lost some players to these types of sites.

[Former Member 14]

I'm sure I've lost some players to these types of sites.

I'm sure we've all lost something or other to webmaster's who operate void of ethics.


Cheers



Dave

[ck8795]

Forget the depositing players. What about the ones that signed up through me and played for fun for a month and now want to deposit, but they get wind of your site and learn how to uninstall and delete the cookies for a "better offer". I should absolutely be the affiliate to make the commissions on that player for life. I got them to install the software in the first place.

Pokertramp I am not trying to be an ass or anything of the sort nor do I agree with telling players to uninstall the software but...

If you sign up a player say to Full Tilt and they remain a play money player than finally after months they decide that "Hey I am going to try real money" They go to deposit see a bonus code and than they figure shoot I need the best possible bonus. So they search google and find my site. They use my bonus code in the deposit form. That player will now be tracked to me as a RMP. I know this is accurate because I opened a real money account at a room months ago, and when I went to deposit I went to an affiliate site to use their bonus code making sure that "that" affiliate was going to make money from me. I downloaded the software from the room themselves.

I am not trying to argue at all. Bonus codes are able to override cookies

I agree 100% with you Dave that people should be talking to their AM's if a player can unisntalll the software and open an account. It is the room's fault if they allow loop holes like this. Now as far as rooms that have requested ID from me when I actively played. The only one was Titan Poker and my hubby had an account there. When I tried to open an account aswell, I couldnt because it had to do with IP's.