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  1. #1
    Decker's Avatar
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    Default affiliates not playing fair?!

    hey guys i wanted to ask your advice on something

    a new affiliate has brought me 3 new players to my site and all three made a deposit of $75

    24 hrs later one of the players play asked to withdraw his money without even placing a bet.
    48 hrs later the 2nd player asked to withdraw his money after playing 1 game
    and a few days later the 3rd player did the same after playing a few short games .

    that seemed strange to me so i checked it out and i notice that that affiliate himself was one of the depositors
    and the other 2 had the same family name as his (which later i found out it was his wife and brother)

    i tried talking to him but he used the old "I didn't know you couldn't do that"
    what do you do in a situation like that? do you pay for the 2 players that did play even due that one of the players is the affiliate himself?
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  2. #2
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    Is it stated clearly in your terms and conditions that affiliates (and their families) CAN'T sign up as players? If it is, then they're in breach and lose all commissions. If not, what's the problem?
    Andy

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  3. #3
    Simmo! is offline Public Member
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    I assume this was a CPA deal? It's one of the hazards of CPA IMO - it is bound to attract some level of unscrupulous behaviour and as being an affiliate has low barriers to entry, there will always be a share of opportunists trying to take advantage.

  4. #4
    Decker's Avatar
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    Default

    no it does not state that in our terms and conditions
    but let me ask you, wouldn't you be pissed ?!
    i mean his wife played one game for a $1 and asked to cash out
    and he himself played a few short games and asked to cashout and im suppose to pay him for doing an affiliate work?! that sux !

    Simmo!: yea i guess no choice here but to swallow the bitter pill and learn from that an important lesson

    Thanks you guys
    Last edited by Decker; 4 December 2008 at 7:42 am.
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  5. #5
    HenrikGr is offline Public Member
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    Default

    If you have the option to add playerpoint release or something like that to the CPA deal I would look into that, so that not just a deposit counts, cause players who deposits and then withdraw shoult not happen... they usually check out the games/offerings before depositing.

    So having a release level for the CPA is a good solution to prevent fraud, not stop it entirely, but it makes it much harder/ not worth it

  6. #6
    Decker's Avatar
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    yea henrik no way his getting paid for the player that withdraw his money a day after without playing
    but regarding him and his wife who played only one game for a $1 i
    i will pay for these two but never work with them again (they probably don't give a **** anyway)
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  7. #7
    HenrikGr is offline Public Member
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    May I ask who the affiliate is?

    As affiliates are good on venting problems with the different programs as they should so we can solve it, it would be usefull for us operators to cooperate as well.

  8. #8
    Decker's Avatar
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    well he's a member on this forum, he knows who he is...
    I'm just hoping he's at least reading this and wont do this s*it again otherwise nobody on this forum will work with him
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  9. #9
    wagerprofits is offline Public Member
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    Decker

    It is not a case of name and shame but it would be helpful for other Am's to know which site he runs.

    If affiliates have problems with rooms they post the site name, i am sure the honest affiliates will not have a problem with this.

    Thanks

    Shaun

  10. #10
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    If the affiliate did this to earn a CPA, then I agree it should not have been done, and you should consider putting it in your terms that a CPA will not be paid to affiliates or family signing up under their own link.

    If however, the affiliate signed up for testing his links, and to see if he was in fact getting credit for the signup and then chose to cash out because they didn't like the games or whatever, then no harm no foul. (in this case it should only have been done on a rev-share deal and the affiliate should have actually asked here or one of the other forums for another affiliate to help with the test)

    Sadly, these kinds of things happening will force you to take a closer look at your terms of service for affiliates.

    I know he is very busy, but if you need a hand, Guard Dog might be able to shed a bit of light into helping you with the terms. You can also take a look at dozens of other programs to see how they cover affiliates using their own links...

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decker View Post
    no it does not state that in our terms and conditions
    but let me ask you, wouldn't you be pissed ?!
    Have to admit I was thinking in terms of % share, but to not state categorically that affiliates can't sign up is asking for trouble. I'm touched by your faith in human nature, but you're on your own there, I'm afraid. These days, if something can be abused, it will be.
    Andy

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  12. #12
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    It's common that affiliates cannot sign up under their own banner. If he wanted his wife to test it thats one thing but to also take advantage is wrong. Im sure he knows it.

    I recently played at a wizard gaming casino. I signed up with their program and wanted to test the games. I signed up from the site but my cookies must have been set and I ended up playing on my own affiate account. I searched for the terms that says I can't sign up from my own banner but couldnt find them. I wrote the casino immediately to tell them what happened. They agreed I was not allowed to do this. They understood and its been straightened out. I would not like to jeopardize a partnership in this way.

    If an affilate wants to do the wrong thing they will need to have the consquences. Sorry this happened Decker.

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    I agree that this is not the way for an affiliate to behave on a CPA. Actually, I'm surprised that solid affiliates would prefer a CPA deal on a casino program. I do much, much better with a revenue share.

    Legally it does matter if you have the TOS dead on, to spell out what an affiliate can and can not do. BUT.. Practically, you do not want to deal with affiliates who think like this. Personally, I know that I can not have a sustainable income if the casinos I promote do not make money. I want them too! lol..

    It's probably a good thing that you didn't name the person in case it was some weird unlikely accident. That can happen, but it's not likely.

  14. #14
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    Back in the old days, players learned that they could get a pecentage from their losses and they sign up as an affiliate themselves.

    Some casinos find out later on that they were getting money back from their losses. However, they were good players and also becoming webmasters and referring other players.


    Decker: I think you should work on your terms and conditions first with clauses about affiliates not being able to receive commissions from their own gambling activity. However, you should let them be to be players as well. They migth not be good affiliates but can turn to be good players.

    Cheers,

    Connie Burstin
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenrikGr View Post
    May I ask who the affiliate is?

    As affiliates are good on venting problems with the different programs as they should so we can solve it, it would be usefull for us operators to cooperate as well.
    Perhaps sharing his name via pm would be an option.
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  16. #16
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    This feels like a throwback to 1998 rather than 2008 !


    Of course the affiliate has rorted the system, using family and friends to deposit without the intention of seriously playing. I see no reason why the affiliate should be paid for this specific traffic - after all it's not REAL gambling traffic - it's simply to generate CPA payments..

    But let's be clear - it's not that they're related that is the issue, these "players" are not REAL players. IF they'd wagered that deposit in full (win or lose) and turned it over a couple of times then you'd call them bonus hunters - but they'd be REAL players.

    The whole CPA model is set up to end unhappily, as programs put in more and more "protections" and eventually they catch affiliates and players who are NOT rorting the system.

    I don't do CPA, but I thought that most CPA systems these days have minimum turnover clauses don't they? Something like 3x deposit or player points (or earlier if player losses the deposit).

    I'd agree with Connie that you need to tighten up on the qualification for what will get a CPA payment.

  17. #17
    Ziggy is offline Private Member
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    I must admit I find the whole thing rather odd.

    As an affiliate, I do download software but not under my affiliate code - therefore, no possible consideration of fraud on my part. I play till I lose (but obviously w/o any commission because its for testing and writing my own reviews).

    If the affiliate was having concerns that his/her links where not being tracked properly that could have been done through cooperation with the site's affiliate manager in question; or a third party (gpwa, affiliate guard dog, etc).

    It certainly doesn't speak well of the affiliate who did this - but then again there are 2 sides to every story and maybe that person will chime in.

  18. #18
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    Hell no they should not be paid. The affiliate did this clearly to defraud the program and these sign ups were not in good faith. I don't care if it wasn't in the terms. The affiliate is trying to find loopholes to steal money.

    If the sign ups were in good faith and the members were spending money and making the program money then it might be different and there could be an argument but this is clearly not the case.
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  19. #19
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    Another good reason for Affiliate programs not allowing CPA.

    CPA is a win-lose situation.

    If your player plays more than the CPA, the affiliate loses out. If he doesn't play enough, the casino loses.

    Why not use the old win-win type cooperation: rev-share? I can't imagine any serious webmasters on CPA deal...

  20. #20
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    What you have here is a double edged sword.

    Yeah, it definitely looks like the affiliate has intentionally tried to get CPA by just having players sign up without playing/only wagering a very small amount...

    However, here is the catch - since you don't have anything in your terms and conditions about this, it could easily get around that you 'dont pay affiliates'...

    Of course you can defend yourself, but at the end of the day you need to make provisions that there will be people who see the negative report and will just believe anything they see without knowing the full story or seeing any proof.. it sux, but this happens every day.

    So I would say the best thing for you to do here is pay the affiliate out and take whatever action you feel is necessary for them moving forward, whether you want to close their account or just tell them that they can't do this moving forward etc..

    Make the change in your T&Cs to show that affiliates and relatives are not able to play under their own account. I would also suggest adding a minimum wagering requirement or similar for all CPA deals.

    All the best mate.
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