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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogpaper View Post
    I understand your passion, after all, as you said, you are trying to make money with Bitcoin.



    What apparently you don't understand is the nature of the business this forum is dedicated to - online gambling, not Bitcoin. Since you are a public member with no affiliate websites in your signature - I have no idea who you are or what you do, but I can see that you are not very knowledgeable of our industry.

    What you will likely have is bitcoins send from an anonymous wallet, i.e. a wallet (or should I say wallets) where BP keeps bitcoins from their Bovada customers' deposits. I doubt that they would even need to go to an exchange to buy bitcoins, since the number of their affiliates is very small and there would be plenty of bitcoins available (from customer deposits) to pay affiliates. And since all you need to open a Bitcoin wallet is an email address, well, I hope you get the idea of how traceable those transactions would be...What you'd end up with is you getting bitcoins purchased from a bunch of sports bettors in the US, then flipped through an anonymous Bitcoin wallet and sent to you.

    So to give you an example transaction:

    1. Joe from Boston buys 10 bitcoins at an exchange, then gambles them at Bovada.
    2. Bovada puts those bitcoins in an anonymous wallet (remember, all you need is an email, ANY email).
    3. BP sends you those 10 bitcoins as commission.

    In essence, all you can trace is that Joe bought the Bitcoins, they went through an anonymous wallet, and you sold those same bitcoins. Nowhere in that transaction has BP been identified in any way.

    I hope you now understand what we (affiliates) are dealing with, instead of foaming at the mouth.
    I had my last months earnings paid out via Bitcoin and raised the same concerns to my affiliate manager before going thru with it. The coins they pay affiliates do not come from player deposits, they come from a separate processor.

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  3. #102
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    Until now I thought the same. Bp now for 99% probability pay through processors too. But today I got another btc from 5dimes and as I am looking at all the addresses that sent me the btc I think 5dimes maybe already pay out from money they got from players or there is some tumbling involved. Maybe it is just my bad impression.

    But they are in btc for 2 years so maybe they are starting to switch from phase where they had to buy bitcoins, to be able to pay them out to affiliates, to the phase where they already have the bitcoins from players (and maybe must switch them back into regular currency).
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  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by hublot View Post
    I had my last months earnings paid out via Bitcoin and raised the same concerns to my affiliate manager before going thru with it. The coins they pay affiliates do not come from player deposits, they come from a separate processor.
    That's reassuring, but did you manage to verify this or did you just take the manager's word for it?

  5. #104
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    What % of players deposit with bitcoin, my guess it's still pretty low.

  6. #105
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    At Bovada it is very low %, but gamblers are interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/com...aking_bitcoin/
    Anybody knows if they offer btc payouts now for players? I thought they already do, at the reddit somebody writes it is not possible yet.
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  8. #106
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    Anyone know a bitcoin exchange where you can withdraw in GBP to a UK bank account?
    Coinbase used to do this but not anymore, you must convert GBP to euros and withdraw those euros to a UK bank account.

  9. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    Anyone know a bitcoin exchange where you can withdraw in GBP to a UK bank account?
    Coinbase used to do this but not anymore, you must convert GBP to euros and withdraw those euros to a UK bank account.
    Use Xapo with a debit card.. you can get it in GBP and it's a uk company

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  11. #108
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    Thanks. I have had a good look at their website - looks very interesting, a bitcoin current account with debit card.

    But doesn't mention what I am after: btc -> GBP -> GBP UK bank account via bacs or wire
    Best I can find so far is coinbase: btc -> Euros -> GBP UK bank account

  12. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    Thanks. I have had a good look at their website - looks very interesting, a bitcoin current account with debit card.

    But doesn't mention what I am after: btc -> GBP -> GBP UK bank account via bacs or wire
    Best I can find so far is coinbase: btc -> Euros -> GBP UK bank account
    Depends on the amount, Kraken can accept sepa transfers or if it-s under 1k you can use localbitcoin, i personally draw with the card and write a ticket for the accountant then deposit, not sure if you can do something similar for the uk

  13. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderpunter View Post
    Depends on the amount, Kraken can accept sepa transfers or if it-s under 1k you can use localbitcoin, i personally draw with the card and write a ticket for the accountant then deposit, not sure if you can do something similar for the uk
    Thanks. At the moment I will go the route of transferring euros I guess and maybe get a company euro account to save the conversion. But looks like it would need to go via a personal euro account first to comply with the exchange's KYC.

  14. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbookies View Post
    Anyone know a bitcoin exchange where you can withdraw in GBP to a UK bank account?
    Coinbase used to do this but not anymore, you must convert GBP to euros and withdraw those euros to a UK bank account.
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  16. #112
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    What I really hate about bitcoin is the security. Not the security of the Bitcoin, but how the affiliates underestimate the security.

    It is still not sure how we will send the the addresses, but both probable ways are very insecure:

    1. To fill the btc payout addresses into myaffiliates software is dangerous. It is not that hard to hack into affiliate account or anybody who has access to the affiliate software on backend can always change the address to his own.

    2. To send the addresses over emails is even crazier.

    5dimes use combination of both methods (1st you put the address into their website, then they ask you again over email to confirm the address [yes sadly, toghether with password over email]), it is for sure better, but still far from perfect. There should be some bitcoin wallet, with 2fa/strong security, something that is either proprietary or created by experienced bitcoin company (in short the same security that online wallets or exchanges have) and there we should input the addresses.
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  17. #113
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    #1 If the affiliate account is hacked, it would not matter in the slightest whether the payment method was bitcoin, wire, check, neteller ir any other method, the hacker could insert their own payment details and unless the affiliate program has triggers in to catch the change (some do) the payment details would be changed by the hacker.

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  18. #114
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    Nope. The wires should not go through, if incorrect name of Payee if filled in. Banks refuse those. Only domestic wires go through without names and addresses.

    Also: affiliate programmes usually have extra feature that they ask the affiliate when Payee is changed. At least explanation but usually documentation is being asked. Same usually applies to change of ewallet payouts.

    Plus there is the last security feature: the ewallets, wires... are into some extent reversible or at least there is always shown where the defrauded money went to.

    Bitcoin is different. Address is just an address, not associated even with email. This is exactly the biggest problem of the bitcoin associated business and people including you do not realize it and look for false threats of the bitcoin. Since the address is being changed every month, it is dangerous. The bare minimum here should be the feature that any change in Bitcoin banking should trigger an email sent to the affiliate with summary of such a change (but even that is far from 100%).

    E.g. "Dear affiliate. You have added/removed this or that address (address only with few beginning/ending signs) into your portfolio. In case you do not know anything about that, contact us immediatelly. The list of your payout addresses, that you added before, is listed here." Also there should be a rule that they will not make a payout to the address they do not have on file at least 48 hours or so. At least this is a hotfix solution.
    Last edited by Sherlock; 8 May 2016 at 4:07 pm.
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  20. #115
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    Well on many of the payment details pages, when entering wire details there is usually an account name section so that could easily be changed by the hacker.

    Also: affiliate programmes usually have extra feature that they ask the affiliate when Payee is changed. At least explanation but usually documentation is being asked. Same usually applies to change of ewallet payouts.
    If there are checks in place to catch any changes to payment details as you suggest, then they would also see changes to bitcoin addresses. If they catch a wire or ewallet change, they should catch all changes.

    I know of some groups that do not allow payment details changes without direct contact with affiliate management staff.

    Suggesting to change payment details every month...or every payment is another flaw since most people using wire, check or other payment methods do not change bank accounts or move every month.

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  21. #116
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    I think we already agreed that change of the address is a must before any payment. It simply is. Already the big US exchanges try to spot gambling activity, so there is no discussion about that even for nonUS affiliates, because bp need the protection to get as much from the bitcoin as possible.

    So the starting point here is how to do it securely if you have to change the address for each payment or if they have many addresses in advance from you.

    Until now the hacker has to change both account owner and payee at once and those changes are rare and even when they go throught they are traceable. Or he triggered extra approval (my affiliates have a note when you are changing delicate data:Denotes value pending approval.)

    Now there is no payee, because unlike wire or ewallet the receiving part has no name and those changes are frequent.

    The first payments I received were relatively secure, because they sent initially small amount as verification and then whole amount to the same address. But I doubt they will do it forever like that. It is a lengthy process that need an extra email communication and it indeed does not help with hiding inside of blockchain (probably nobody wants to be verified from the same wallet as all the other affiliates, even bp do not want that). The second bulk of payments I received to addresses without verification.

    The solution that bitcoin exchanges developed for payouts to multiple and new addresses is something that affiliates and bookies have to copy. If bitcoin is really going to be gambling processor it will be not just more secure than double payments to the same address and exchanging emails because of one payout, but also cost effective. I really hate how I have to reply at 5dimes 2 days later, if I am really withdrawing in btc, and that I have to repeat that address. Bitcoin payouts can be both secure and simple. It should not be excessively complicated for newbies.
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  22. #117
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    Well maybe you agreed about the constant changes of payment methods, but if that is a need then that alone is another flaw.

    Maybe you can convince all the bookies to rewrite the affiliate interface to only allow payment method changes from certain ip addresses.

    Or maybe they can do a confirmation link by email, (in order for the changes to become active) since a hacker would also need to hack the affiliate account and the email account. The problem with that is that hackers may be hacking the email account first, (or capturing the packets on the mail server) in order to get the password to get into the affiliate account.

    If that ends up being the case there is almost no way to stop the payment details change, unless it would be by ip address. (my guess this is one of the reasons that Neteller offers this method)

    Then only if the affiliates computer is compromised would the hacker successfully be able to pull it off.

    Rick
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    The whole suggestion of needing to constant change wallet addresses is just crazy.

  23. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
    Maybe you can convince all the bookies to rewrite the affiliate interface to only allow payment method changes from certain ip addresses.
    Well, I am usually on dynamic IP and each few weeks in different country. And this still does not solve the problem what if the hacker goes around. The problem is that affiliate interface is unprepared for Bitcoin. Yes, they should accomodate asap, that would be the best. Otherwise affiliate programs should handle and store the bitcoin addresses outside of affiliate interface.
    Or maybe they can do a confirmation link by email, (in order for the changes to become active) since a hacker would also need to hack the affiliate account and the email account. The problem with that is that hackers may be hacking the email account first, (or capturing the packets on the mail server) in order to get the password to get into the affiliate account.
    Yes. Only access to email should not be sufficient to do the change.

    The whole suggestion of needing to constant change wallet addresses is just crazy.
    It is not crazy, crazy is the opposite. Even if they do not demand the constant change, I would demand that. It is the part of blockchain safety.

    After all, there should be at 100% confirmation for the affiliate that he/she sent them this or that adddress. After they are hacked it will be their problem then that the bitcoins were sent to wrong address. This is why I propose the automatic emails with every change (I am not original here, exchanges already have this built-in feauture.)
    Last edited by Sherlock; 8 May 2016 at 5:00 pm.
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  24. #119
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    I have found this: https://loaddebitcard.com
    It should be a service, where anybody can load his existing card with bitcoins. If one wants to use it once a month the fees are either 10USD+2% or 38USD+1%. It is quite high but I guess good option for small affiliates who really hate bitcoin and they do not want to get special debit bitcoin cards.

    For those who want to go for bitcoin debit card the ones I liked most:
    https://www.shiftpayments.com/card USD, probably US based, so maybe some problems with gambling occur
    https://www.wagecan.com/Pricing both USD and EUR (deliveries US/EU), very cheap virtual cards, Taiwan based

    Also many other btc debit cards listed in this confusing thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1242788.0 but maybe as time goes they will finally make some useful table there.
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  25. #120
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    Just got paid by Bovada in btc for April. There was a slight confusion, nothing serious. It seems they will be sending emails shortly before processing the payout as they will do for normal players. I was informed now that they can pay up to 450K USD to one address at once (so unless you earn more than 450K/month, one address per month might be enough). (But each month new address has to be used). According to blockchain.info the value of btc I got was 0.6% lower tha market rate, but that is I guess because blockchain.info uses Bitstamp exchange rate which is today about 2USD/BTC lower than other major USD exchanges. In other words I got exactly as I had to get in the middle exchange rate of Coinbase or Bitfinex.
    We are all bloodsucking ticks, hungry, devious
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    when the last and the first latch on it can be shown
    ass-blood sucked by the first from the last is his own

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