Bitcoin as the ONLY payment option, lol what?

[TheGooner]

Appreciate you posting the details Sherlock as it helps me get a feel for the process and likely conversion / value issues

[zuutroy]

Got some BTC from Chipsplit, spent it at a merchant using Bitpay and it went missing and took about a week to get sorted. Not a great introduction to the system!

[adairk]

Seeing as there is now only one option called Bitcoin to get paid at BettingPartners I have dropped all promotion of BettingPartners sportsbooks and casinos as I myself want nothing to do with what I see as crooked Bitcoin. And if this is a new trend, any other brand who decides to have only Bitcoin as their only payment option can go to #*^% too.

[slotplayer]

Can any (preferably a us based) affiliate recommend an exchange they've used? pm if you want it kept out of the forum.
I've got a little money coming so I might as well use it to test the process. Its looking more and more likely this is the new pmop going forward.

Much appreciated.

[Sherlock]

I have used Kraken.com many times. Their owner is Jesse Powell. He is for Bitcoin industry something like Tony or Spiro for bookmaking. Kraken was awarded to settle what remained from Mt. Gox. And the guy Jesse Powell quite **** me off in a good way, because the best gambling bitcoin domains like btcbet.com are his. He has I think stake in some bitcoin casino, forgot which one. Def. very sharp guy. Their CS is therefore top notch. I mean at least on the level of Bet365.com or Pinnaclesports.com sportsbook (which is highly competent if you ever solved with them). Security is very very high. E.g. you are not sending documents over email etc.

But all top liquidity exchanges should be ok. The rates vary up to approx. 1%. Some have higher fees, which compansate it. I did not use others, but did CS tests. Did not like Bitstamp, they were too "corporate style". Talked with Gatecoin owner Aurelien Menant, who is a banker and sees Bitcoin/Blockchain in the same way as me [in short that it can be more transparent than money flows, but "only" the banks need to learn how to track blockchain]. He was very helpful, I wanted to give them action too, but they were recently hacked

Like with sportsbooks, when you are exchanging BTC to fiat, they must do strict KYC procedures. At Kraken and I assume elsewhere too, the deepness of the KYC triggers higher limits. Level 1,2,3 at Kraken are easy (Level 3 is daily withdrawal limit 10K USD). Level 4 (100K/day) was quite tough, I had to disclose more things than in high turnover banks.

Kraken has high liquidity to EUR, a lower to USD, but probably is good for CAD. Cheap and fast payouts in Eurozone (I did not try, my friends did).

But in short. The exchange here is not the bottleneck. It is the bank that has to accept the money from btc.
In Europe it is for sure Fidor, but accessible only for German and UK residents so far.
In the USA you should look at btc forums/reddit for the btc friendly bank rather. And also rather befare the exchanges that check for gambling related money and never say you have something to do with gambling. You are an online advertiser. And follow the bp rule about 1 new address for 1 transaction (probably easier to follow with software wallet that generates them upfront).

[hublot]

Can any (preferably a us based) affiliate recommend an exchange they've used? pm if you want it kept out of the forum.
I've got a little money coming so I might as well use it to test the process. Its looking more and more likely this is the new pmop going forward.

Much appreciated.

This is pretty good for US based affiliates... easy and can do both POS and ATM transactions.

Limits are decent and fees are reasonable.

https://bitpay.com/visa/

[Sherlock]

BP just sent a newsletter:

What can you do now? 1. Start by logging into your Betting Partners account and locating the Finances Tab. 2. Click on 'Payment instructions'. 3. Enter the email address you wish to receive all payment notifications moving forward. 4. Enter your unique BTC address. 5. Our Support team will then verify that the address you've provided is unique. We will not use a BTC address if you've had any other transaction to or from it. This includes but is not limited to other programs, personal use, businesses, etc. 6. If your earnings are more than $10.00 USD at the time we run commissions, you will automatically be triggered for payments. We aim to have BTC payments processed by the 10th of each month. 7. Once your BTC payment is processed, our payments team will send out a notification including the amount we sent in USD & BTC. The notification will also include the date it was sent to help you better locate the transaction. 8. Each month around the 14th, your payment method will be set to "None", leaving no trace of the previous address used. To avoid any delays, always provide a unique address after the 15th to ensure we have what we need to get you paid!
	Important things to remember! • Bitcoin addresses can only be registered by logging into your account and storing it yourself. We will not accept any addresses via email or tickets. • It is your responsibility to always provide accurate and unique Bitcoin addresses. • We will never use the same address twice nor will we use an address you've used elsewhere. • You will have from the 15th of each month to the 2nd of the following month to update your address. Any address received after this date will not be triggered and will fall under next month's commissions. I.e., for Running May Commissions, you will have from May 15th to June 2nd to register your wallet. For Running June Commissions, you will have from June 15th to July 2nd to input your new wallet. • To find out more information, please visit the Bitcoin tab on betttingpartners.com
	We've created a special email address for all Bitcoin-related inquiries. If you have any other questions, please let us know at btcsupport@bettingpartners.com.

The 2 channels for putting in btc addresses are ok. E.g. one has to edit it in the affiliate interface. It is for sure better than sending via email, but there should be also always at least an email confirmation from them that the payment method was changed.

Follow the rule with the empty and unused address for each payout. It is our mutual interest to do it this way. My suggestion is to follow it always.

[yeahfree]

ok, my first experience with bitcoin.

what i want to test:
1. install the software
2. get bitcoin, receive it
3. see if i can recover my wallet if it gets lost
4. see the actual value of the received bitcoin in eur / usd at the moment of the transaction.
5. figure out what a cold storage / offline wallet is

i have downloaded electrum (from www.electrum.org) to my pc (machine 1).
i have created a wallet (wallet kind: standard wallet)
i have bought for 10 euros in bitcoin.
this money has been added now to my wallet.

after this i have created a qr code and printed it, and deleted my wallet from my pc.

i started up my laptop (machine 2), downloaded electrum, took my mobile and scanned the qr code, and did a wallet recover on my lapop with the seed from the qr code. my wallet recovered succesfully on machine 2.

so, step 1, 2 and 3 all good now.

step 4, not yet. i can see the transaction on blockchain.info, and i can also see my bitcoin address in there with the amount in usd, but that's the current value, not the actual value from the moment that i did receive it.

question 1:
is it possible to see the value from the transaction in eur or usd at the moment of the transaction itself somewhere?
i'm interested in this because of the tax. i need to create invoices for the tax, in euros.
otherwise, is there a location where you can see historic exchange rates?


step 5, cold storage / offline wallet
i have read http://docs.electrum.org/en/latest/coldstorage.html , they create an environment with 2 machines, and i get it, but i don't have an offline machine available at this moment.

question 2:
Would the following work:
i delete my wallet(s) from my machine, maybe even delete electrum.
the moment i would ever actually need my bitcoin, i can install electrum, qr scan my qrcode with the seed, recover my wallet, use it, and after that i can delete my wallet and electrum. the moment my computer would ever be compromised, nothing is there.
would this be 'just as safe' and good practise? if not, why not?

question 3:
general security. as far as i understand things in this setup the wallet is secured by the seed. if you have the seed, you can do whatever you want with it. if a hacker can figure out a seed, he has access to your wallet, and can spend it.
if somebody would build a script to feed random seeds to the restore wallet procedure in electrum, you could potentially brute force hack a wallet. for sure this is not easy, but for sure it's also not impossible... right? i mean, md5 nowadays is possible to brute force i believe, and it's a matter of having enough processing power and time.
my question would be, can it still be hacked this way?

i will continue meanwhile doing some more testing , transferring some btc from one wallet to another etc to get some more experience

[yeahfree]

wrt my question 1 about the exchange rate, as an alternative i can maybe use something like http://quotes.wsj.com/index/XX/NYXBT/historical-prices and pick the dollar close amount, then convert that to euros again. at least wsj should be looking familiar / old school to a tax guy

[slotplayer]

It is the bank that has to accept the money from btc.

How often does this happen? What does the descriptor say for wires/ach? How does the bank know where it came from?

[Sherlock]

How often does this happen? What does the descriptor say for wires/ach? How does the bank know where it came from?

Depends from bank to bank, from state to state.

Maybe you live temporarily in a little bit free world, but there are countries, where banks ask you for every 4figs payment where is it from etc.
There are still banks who do not give a ****. There are banks that have treshold for that, like 15K Eur.

Also there are banks that block everything that goes from to company that has "bitcoin", "bit" etc. as name. This is why now everyone talks about blockchain and not bitcoin also.

Yes, crazy, but do not blame me.

There are threads online about banks that one has to be especially careful. I suggest to browse your national bitcoin forums and threads. There are roundabouts that I think will work, but I would like to keep them private.

[Sherlock]

ok, my first experience with bitcoin.

what i want to test:
1. install the software
2. get bitcoin, receive it
3. see if i can recover my wallet if it gets lost
4. see the actual value of the received bitcoin in eur / usd at the moment of the transaction.
5. figure out what a cold storage / offline wallet is

i have downloaded electrum (from www.electrum.org) to my pc (machine 1).
i have created a wallet (wallet kind: standard wallet)
i have bought for 10 euros in bitcoin.
this money has been added now to my wallet.

after this i have created a qr code and printed it, and deleted my wallet from my pc.

i started up my laptop (machine 2), downloaded electrum, took my mobile and scanned the qr code, and did a wallet recover on my lapop with the seed from the qr code. my wallet recovered succesfully on machine 2.

so, step 1, 2 and 3 all good now.

Well done sir.

step 4, not yet. i can see the transaction on blockchain.info, and i can also see my bitcoin address in there with the amount in usd, but that's the current value, not the actual value from the moment that i did receive it.

No, you clicked on the Green button then you see actual rate. But if you just hover with mouse over, you will see a rate at the time of transaction.
From some reson the images are impossible to upload here, so see here: http://pasteboard.co/14paDJ6G.png (the mouse that is hovering over/pointed at the button) the mouse cursor is not shown

question 1:
is it possible to see the value from the transaction in eur or usd at the moment of the transaction itself somewhere?
i'm interested in this because of the tax. i need to create invoices for the tax, in euros.
otherwise, is there a location where you can see historic exchange rates?


step 5, cold storage / offline wallet
i have read http://docs.electrum.org/en/latest/coldstorage.html , they create an environment with 2 machines, and i get it, but i don't have an offline machine available at this moment.

The blockchain shows only USD as far as I know.

Yes you can see rates at all exchanges minute by minute at bitcoincharts.com. E.g. the biggest BTC <-> EUR is Kraken.
List the EUR exchange at top left corner, pick the day, pick 1 minute scale. Like this.
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/krak...g10zm2g25zvzcv
The scroll down under the chart and click on load raw data.

Yes, there is also portable electrum wallet. You need just a flash/USB stick. I am using it this way. Then you do not need second computer. Choose the portable wallet. It has the seed option as well etc. But I suggest to encrypt that wallet too, even when the wallet itself has a password ofc.

question 2:
Would the following work:
i delete my wallet(s) from my machine, maybe even delete electrum.
the moment i would ever actually need my bitcoin, i can install electrum, qr scan my qrcode with the seed, recover my wallet, use it, and after that i can delete my wallet and electrum. the moment my computer would ever be compromised, nothing is there.
would this be 'just as safe' and good practise? if not, why not?

It is a safe practice, but I suggest to rather format the disc in the way that no data can be recovered; if you use the flash memory stick option, just delete it and burn it, if you want to destroy it

question 3:
general security. as far as i understand things in this setup the wallet is secured by the seed. if you have the seed, you can do whatever you want with it. if a hacker can figure out a seed, he has access to your wallet, and can spend it.
if somebody would build a script to feed random seeds to the restore wallet procedure in electrum, you could potentially brute force hack a wallet. for sure this is not easy, but for sure it's also not impossible... right? i mean, md5 nowadays is possible to brute force i believe, and it's a matter of having enough processing power and time.
my question would be, can it still be hacked this way?

i will continue meanwhile doing some more testing , transferring some btc from one wallet to another etc to get some more experience

Yes the seed is dangerous. Be it the QR code or the 10+ words, if someone figures out that he can use it with electrum, he has everything he needs. But no, seed itself is not enough. It is just a key, he must know the lock for the key. But it is dangerous.

But trying all the combinations of seeds o recover the wallet is impossible to solve during some reasonable time. It is too many combinations, like the puzzle will be solved in billion years or so. I guess if it would be 100 letters that you have to choose, it is something like 1/26^100 probability that you hit the combination. So to break seed with bruteforce you need like 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 operations. Computers are far from that. In fact it is less because the seed I think consists from English words (not sure if in QR code version), but still it is not solvable.

It is important to use tested wallets. They are leaving the proved wallets to geeks with bitcoins in, people try to break in, nobody did it. If bitcoins are hacked, it is either that you lose seed, have compromised computer or usually the online wallet is ****** up.

Either way it is better to use screen keyboard for electrum password.

[universal4]

Well,

Keeping the qr code on the phone "could" be dangerous.

Even worse if the phone backs up everything to the cloud, since now what is needed for anyone to recover the wallet is sitting on a cloud server which you have no control over.

Rick
Universal4

[yeahfree]

Well done sir.


No, you clicked on the Green button then you see actual rate. But if you just hover with mouse over, you will see a rate at the time of transaction.
From some reson the images are impossible to upload here, so see here: http://pasteboard.co/14paDJ6G.png (the mouse that is hovering over/pointed at the button) the mouse cursor is not shown

brilliant, thanks! i saw your earlier comment on this subject already a couple of pages ago, but it did not work in my firefox (my default browser). i have just tested it, and it works in chrome. so simple.

The blockchain shows only USD as far as I know.

Yes you can see rates at all exchanges minute by minute at bitcoincharts.com. E.g. the biggest BTC <-> EUR is Kraken.
List the EUR exchange at top left corner, pick the day, pick 1 minute scale. Like this.
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/krak...g10zm2g25zvzcv
The scroll down under the chart and click on load raw data.

thanks, nice one. i am going to create my own local wikipedia with bitcoin info over here, this info will definitely go in it.
meanwhile i have also been experimenting with multibit hd. multibit does show the historic exchange rate from the transaction, which i consider a big plus. also it exports this data is you want to. i will do some further testing to see which wallet will work best for my personal needs.

Yes, there is also portable electrum wallet. You need just a flash/USB stick. I am using it this way. Then you do not need second computer. Choose the portable wallet. It has the seed option as well etc. But I suggest to encrypt that wallet too, even when the wallet itself has a password ofc.


It is a safe practice, but I suggest to rather format the disc in the way that no data can be recovered; if you use the flash memory stick option, just delete it and burn it, if you want to destroy it

hm, you're right, just deleting it on a windows machine will not be enough. shredding it should be a bit better. i will look into the usb stick solution, but that will be something for round 2 for me. i need to do some more testing first.
multibit hd has the advantage of being able to change the program folder from the standard c/users/username/appdata/roaming/program/ folder to another location, i like that. while it would not be completely offline, at least for this round 1 i could put that folder on an external stick and remove it when i'm finished. interesting. anyway, i understand that this is not the final solution where i should be heading to, i just need to take the small steps to keep an overview of what i'm doing and what would be the result.
[/QUOTE]

Yes the seed is dangerous. Be it the QR code or the 10+ words, if someone figures out that he can use it with electrum, he has everything he needs. But no, seed itself is not enough. It is just a key, he must know the lock for the key. But it is dangerous.

But trying all the combinations of seeds o recover the wallet is impossible to solve during some reasonable time. It is too many combinations, like the puzzle will be solved in billion years or so. I guess if it would be 100 letters that you have to choose, it is something like 1/26^100 probability that you hit the combination. So to break seed with bruteforce you need like 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 operations. Computers are far from that. In fact it is less because the seed I think consists from English words (not sure if in QR code version), but still it is not solvable.

It is important to use tested wallets. They are leaving the proved wallets to geeks with bitcoins in, people try to break in, nobody did it. If bitcoins are hacked, it is either that you lose seed, have compromised computer or usually the online wallet is ****** up.

Either way it is better to use screen keyboard for electrum password.

1/26^100 , you convinced me there already, thanks.
screen keyboard, why? will key logger software not grab this too? it's still input anyway. i guess for that it would not make a difference (the software should not care where the input is coming from, just log the input).


what i still do find a pitty is that both electrum and multibit hd do not provide a print button in it.
another thing i find a pitty is that both just recover the minimum when you do a recovery. as far as i remember from my testing they don't recover notes. in multibit hd which support the actual exchange rate in the transation details , it won't recover these rates but just picks the rate from moment of recovering. i guess it's logical. i'm talking about recovering without backups, just by the seed. anyway, good to know.

sherlock, what is your opinion on trezor? did you look into that?
and big thanks for all of your help, not just in your response to me, but in this whole thread!

[Sherlock]

Well,

Keeping the qr code on the phone "could" be dangerous.

Even worse if the phone backs up everything to the cloud, since now what is needed for anyone to recover the wallet is sitting on a cloud server which you have no control over.

Rick
Universal4

That would be crazy to have an cold wallet in a "hot" device. Cold wallet has to be stored at safe place.

[Sherlock]

1/26^100 , you convinced me there already, thanks.
screen keyboard, why? will a trojan that grabs key input not grab this too? it's still input anyway. i guess for that it would not make a difference (the trojan software should not care where the input is coming from, just log the input).


what i still do find a pitty is that both electrum and multibit hd do not provide a print button in it.
another thing i find a pitty is that both just recover the minimum when you do a recovery. as far as i remember from my testing they don't recover notes. in multibit hd which support the actual exchange rate in the transation details , it won't recover these rates but just picks the rate from moment of recovering. i guess it's logical. i'm talking about recovering without backups, just by the seed. anyway, good to know.

sherlock, what is your opinion on trezor? did you look into that?
and big thanks for all of your help, not just in your response to me, but in this whole thread!

I assume the keylogger has much higher chance when using keyboard than when using random clicks on screen. Maybe times changed, but banks are using this I hope for some reason. Nothing is 100%, but combining few things should be safe enough. Much safer than trust in banks and governments.

I did not know that from seed the notes are not recovered, but it makes sense. Yes, that is a bit probalematic, because I am making notes by any transaction. That is why it is better to have the primary wallet really secure and maybe print the balances with notes on papers. Just printscreening must be enough At least at those wallets.

Yes I looked at trezor. But after I learned about electrum. I think it is a good option for people who do not want to dig that deep. I have 3 problems with that.

There is just one physical copy of trezor. With your own waller on memory stick/cd etc, you have more wallets and it is defacto hardware wallet. if it is encrypted, imo it is even safer, because it is just some USB device! The trezor means you have bitcoins! That is the flaw. Imagine 2030, everybody knows bitcoin is a parallel currency. You are being robbed at gunpoint. And they know here are the bitcoins vs. some flash stick. I am also not fan (maybe irrationally) to create wallets from seed.

The second problem I saw with trezor is that there is also seed. Somewhat I do not like the idea that the seed has to be somehow handled with 3rd party if the trezor is physically destroyed. I did not dig deeper how the seed with 3rd party works. Probably fine.

3rd problem is that free software wallets are much more tested online.

Take those three notes just as my personal thoughts. It may be irrelevant. It is not a fact, just my thinking in limited time.

Edit: my domestic bitcoin expert just told me that it is possible to export and import the notes in electrum.

[universal4]

Yep,

Burn it to a cd/dvd or 4 of them.
Copy it ti a few cheap usb sticks.
Copy it to an encrypted hard drive or two.
Because it is a qr code, print out a few copies.

Rick
Universal4

[slotplayer]

What is the standalone version for? I could not find any specific info on it. I was thinking this could be used on a flash drive.

[detor]

It make sense to me, at least an opportunity to test a technology that will be a part of the future somehow. Nowadays is very easy to exchange your Bitcoins for any mayor currency and deposit them on a bank account or debit card almost instantly, it doesn't sounds that "risky" to me.

Of course, I'm a Bitcoin supporter

[yeahfree]

The blockchain shows only USD as far as I know.

you can actually change this to any other currency in the select list at the bottom right of the page. i did a test transaction of 5 euro, and it shows up as 4.94 euro. so there is a difference.