Bitcoin as the ONLY payment option, lol what?

[ogpaper]

I wonder, with the lack of any paper trail, how do you convince the local bank (and authorities) that you are not just running a ransomware? Anonymity being a major point of Bitcoin, it seems that there is no way to prove that the money you've got from selling your bitcoins came from a legit business...

And this move by BP doesn't solve the problem of handling the deposits and payouts of casino players and bettors at Bovada, who would leave en masse if bitcoin was the only payout method. It seems that Bovada realized that Bitcoin is shite and solved the problem of what to do with the bitcoins they get from their players by simply dumping them onto the affiliates. There is no other reason why non-US affiliate couldn't retain at least wire payments.

[Sherlock]

Sadly I read the post being logged off. It amazes me how ignorant people keep repeating things from newspaper headlines, instead of trying to understand what is going on. Bitcoin is not anonymous, bitcoin is exactly the opposite, if the users want to reveal it. The transactions from bp wallet to the exchange is clearly seen for everybody with internet connection. Blockchain is public. If the wallets are voluntarily de-anonymized, then everything is public. Let's just hope that the banks are becoming less ignorant than certain people. But I think that if anybody does not understand it even now, after reading whole this thread, he should really avoid bitcoin transactions.

[Sherlock]

Jesus it seems like a minefield. Is there an easy way to just convert bitcoin into Skrill?

sorry i put there wrong link for buying btc, this one should be ok https://localbitcoins.com/sell-bitco...ookers-skrill/

[TheGooner]

3 hours you say...
I, together with my gf, spent maybe few thousands of hours with research.

My apologies for the vast underestimation ... of course I was aware that you must have spent many hours more on this.

What I meant was spending 3 hours directly with a paid expert 1-on-1, using their greater experience to guide through the whole process, is probably the minimum I'd want before moving any sizable amounts.

After a few months then I could pick up the process.

It's like any computer tech - creating a website for the first time - installing WordPress - installing a server - configuring firewalls (etc) the first time you go through the process it just is NOT obvious what is right and wrong - and you go through a trial and error phase where (fortunately) there is not much at risk because the site is new.

Unfortunately, in this case the risk (as a newbie who WILL make errors) is sizable with every potential transaction.

I will have to print off and work through the notes you have provided - I appreciate the effort that you went to in order to write them and share your knowledge in this sphere.

[ogpaper]

If the wallets are voluntarily de-anonymized, then everything is public.

Sure, I can see BP de-anonymizing their wallets Are you even connected to reality?
All I'd be able to prove is that my wallet (which has NO identifying information, other than an email address) received bitcoins from an anonymous wallet.

Gooner, the process is really not that complicated:
1. Create a wallet at blockchain
2. Give BP your wallet's receiving bitcoin address (found under Receive Money tab)
3. Open an account with an exchange
4. Sell your bitcoins from your wallet at the exchange
5. money sent to your bank account

There are some good videos on the subject at the SBRForum: http://www.sportsbookreview.com/foru...ooks-industry/

[TheGooner]

Except of course it seems to be good practice (although I'm still unsure why) to regularly change the receiving address?
And BP want multiple receiving addresses each month etc ...
And I don't know when they will send it.

IF I am away on travel do I REALLY want 100, 200, 300 BTC sitting online for a week or two?
How do I prevent that - or protect that situation securely.
Exactly how do I move from online to cold storage - and how many backups is prudent?

It's this understanding of best practice for large amounts that am working through slowly.
I'm sure this will all become clear with reading of notes and practice - but at present I am still not clear in my mind how this works.

(imagine trying to explain to someone who has never programmed the intricacies of database design for example ...
or even how to drive a car if they've only ever ridden horses ... that's how I feel at present)


I guess I'll have to do some back and forth testing with small amounts.

[ogpaper]

I hear ya! Not to mention other nuisances like transaction limits on exchange accounts we are sure to face at the beginning, which would force you to keep bitcoins in your wallet.

As you can tell, I'm less than happy we got roped into this Bitcoin crap

[TheGooner]

If you are an US affiliate I would recommend at least:

1. Using your own wallet installed in your computer like Electrum

2. At least to divide the commission received from bp into more addresses with smaller balances and then fill the exchange from those addresses (the source of money can be easily spotted, but you have at least one virtual entity between you and bp and nobody knows who is that entity; so you are at least a bit protected against UIGEA); I think what bp should do soon, if they do not do that already, is tumbling the bitcoins before sending to affiliates

3. Never use the same wallet twice (applies to everyone)

Sherlock,

I am confused about point 3 - Never use the same wallet twice

Do you mean throw away the wallet after each series of payments?
And generate a new wallet for each month / each program ?

Or just generate a new receiving address each time.

Is this UIGEA paranoia (and so less of an issue for non-US affiliates?) or just good secure practice for EVERYONE ?

[PROFRBcom]

My own opinion here is that the swap to full bitcoin is a multi-pronged approach to:

1) Improve profits (it's cheaper to process)
2) Hide their transactions (I'm sure they're using tumblers to obfuscate the source of the bitcoins)
3) Free up other processing channels for customers (imagine how much they free up their ecommerce processing solutions by taking all the affiliate payments out of those systems and using it strictly for the players!)

I think their margins just went up quite a few percentage points and they're loving it. Smart business move really.

[elgoog]

unusefull post from me, did not read the extensive posts from Sherloch b4 posting myself

[Sherlock]

My apologies for the vast underestimation ... of course I was aware that you must have spent many hours more on this.

What I meant was spending 3 hours directly with a paid expert 1-on-1, using their greater experience to guide through the whole process, is probably the minimum I'd want before moving any sizable amounts.

After a few months then I could pick up the process.

It's like any computer tech - creating a website for the first time - installing WordPress - installing a server - configuring firewalls (etc) the first time you go through the process it just is NOT obvious what is right and wrong - and you go through a trial and error phase where (fortunately) there is not much at risk because the site is new.

Unfortunately, in this case the risk (as a newbie who WILL make errors) is sizable with every potential transaction.

I will have to print off and work through the notes you have provided - I appreciate the effort that you went to in order to write them and share your knowledge in this sphere.

Yes that is it. But remember when we learned with wordpress etc (or anything at all... right now I am learning how to ride a horse and it is hard). One thing is to read theory and learn it through that descriptive way. Second kind of learning is to really try it and touch it. That is why I said "try to exchange some small money into btc and try to move it". Well, since you are having questions that make sense and I really like your approach to something new, I offer to you the introduction to the second approach. Sadly there are no bitcoin experts that are coming from real economy for hire.

If you want, send me a PM and let's set up a meeting over some instant messenger. I will guide you how to make at least the simple online wallet, I will send you there some small money, you will try to move it around etc. Of course only if you wish so. I feel somewhat depressed that I must take care in this thread to not read the nonsenses that appear over and over again with selfconfidence of posters who know nothing. There is nothing bad about knowing nothing, but then the person must know at least that he/she knows nothing. I will rather tell 10 people 1 on 1 what to do than to read nonsense. Yes, bitcoin is dangerous, but not in the way we read in newspapers.

[universal4]

Again,

Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them senseless or that they know nothing.

Some people just do NOT respect that others have differences of opinion.

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

Except of course it seems to be good practice (although I'm still unsure why) to regularly change the receiving address?
And BP want multiple receiving addresses each month etc ...
And I don't know when they will send it.

Ok, this is not necessary for sure. But there are 2 very good resons why to ask for the change. I was trying to write it before, but once again, because it is not clean for newbies.

1.
It is a protection for bp and for US affiliates. Even bitcoins have some regulations and it is obvious that even using bitcoins fro gambling is not 100% ok with US law. If you keep hitting one wallet, then in so called blockchain analysis it will be possible (now or one day) to see who is sending bitcoins to whom. This can cause problems to affiliates who reside in the US, but also to bettingpartners who must buy the btc somewhere to pay us. So they must mask their action. And changing the addresses is such masking. You may say that you are not doing something illegal in NZ and you are probably right. But if they keep hitting your one address over and over again, they might be exposed. Try to have the wallet. when you have it you will see that it is not a big difference to have btc in one address or more.

2. If you send one times bitcoins to some address, it is easy to see everything. If you add more transactions and the other transactions happen during different exchange rate, it is just confusing, esp. if you send money out.
If you have one transaction per one wallet, then after you receive money to address 1MrwRAY5wGoSPgXJWHP7qgnn9tXY4rspwp you (or anyone else can see it like here): https://blockchain.info/address/1Mrw...qgnn9tXY4rspwp. It is clear. When you received the bitcoins and what was the USD price (if you hoverwith mouse over the green button 0.85089912 BTC). So it is also to avoid accounting confusion.
I just realized that the online wallets - or at least some of them - use just one address. So if an affiliate chooses the online wallet then really he gets just one address per signup (unline by software wallet). So it is probably one more reason why to use the software or hardware wallet and not the online wallet, where you can not change the address without changing wallet.

IF I am away on travel do I REALLY want 100, 200, 300 BTC sitting online for a week or two?
How do I prevent that - or protect that situation securely.
Exactly how do I move from online to cold storage - and how many backups is prudent?

Bp should tell exactly the dats when we will be paid out. That is one thing. If you have hundreds of btc already in your wallet or if it is simply significant money for you and you are on vacation, then I personally would not take the wallet with me and I would wait until I am home with exchange. Just having software wallet with strong password in crypted computer + 2 seeds, where one will be in different location is I think sufficient. Only if you are planning to store bitcoins for years I would do some extra protection. If you really want to exchange the money on vacation immediatelly after you receive them, I would suggest to go with online wallet or wallets (if the online wallet has just one address) as exception. There are other ways how to have the cold wallet with you on vacation, but I would not go to the details now.

I guess I'll have to do some back and forth testing with small amounts.

Yes PM me if you want to start practicing just sending the bitcons, then you can add next steps: exchange of the bitcoins and creating software/cold wallet.

[Sherlock]

Again,

Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them senseless or that they know nothing.

Some people just do NOT respect that others have differences of opinion.

Rick
Universal4

Wrong. It is not about agreement. If someone says bitcoin is anonymous, it is a nonsense. We do not have to talk about basic things. Like if green is green. Well, most people talk about those nonsenses all the time, but sorry, I am traying to make money here. I have no time for that.

If someone says obvious lies and he says it repeatedly and he does not listen, then it is up to moderators to create order.

Ok, if you ant to run the discussion in a way, I will quit. Once again: bitcoin is not anonymous and all transactions are traceable. Anyone denying this is a dogmatic and there discussion ends. If someone wants to reveal where his bitcoins come from, e.g if he reveals that his bitcoins exchanged at some exchange came from certain address, then anybody can see all addresses that filled the address at the exchange. There is nothing to talk about. Green is green. Understanding of bitcoin starts exactly here. It is a blockchain that anybody can see. Who does not know this, does not know anything about bitcoin.

FYI there are some other cryptocurrencies that are really anonymous or at least much more anonymous than bitcoin. One of them is for example Darkcoin.

But I know it is irrelevant, because next time somebody else will write something about bitcoin anonymity. (Bitcoin can be anonymous [if you try to hide], but it does not mean it must be anonymous - on the contrary; if you want to prove it, it is less anonymous than wire money transactions, because everybody can see the addresses in the chain).

[Sherlock]

2 TheGooner:
there are also services like this:
http://bitnotify.com/ (pleanty of them, some other may suit you better)
I have never used it but it should be easy. You can put theere an address and when money comes in, you will get email.

The addresses of online wallets should have such option within the wallet.

[ogpaper]

I understand your passion, after all, as you said, you are trying to make money with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin can be anonymous [if you try to hide], but it does not mean it must be anonymous - on the contrary

What apparently you don't understand is the nature of the business this forum is dedicated to - online gambling, not Bitcoin. Since you are a public member with no affiliate websites in your signature - I have no idea who you are or what you do, but I can see that you are not very knowledgeable of our industry.

What you will likely have is bitcoins send from an anonymous wallet, i.e. a wallet (or should I say wallets) where BP keeps bitcoins from their Bovada customers' deposits. I doubt that they would even need to go to an exchange to buy bitcoins, since the number of their affiliates is very small and there would be plenty of bitcoins available (from customer deposits) to pay affiliates. And since all you need to open a Bitcoin wallet is an email address, well, I hope you get the idea of how traceable those transactions would be...What you'd end up with is you getting bitcoins purchased from a bunch of sports bettors in the US, then flipped through an anonymous Bitcoin wallet and sent to you.

So to give you an example transaction:

1. Joe from Boston buys 10 bitcoins at an exchange, then gambles them at Bovada.
2. Bovada puts those bitcoins in an anonymous wallet (remember, all you need is an email, ANY email).
3. BP sends you those 10 bitcoins as commission.

In essence, all you can trace is that Joe bought the Bitcoins, they went through an anonymous wallet, and you sold those same bitcoins. Nowhere in that transaction has BP been identified in any way.

I hope you now understand what we (affiliates) are dealing with, instead of foaming at the mouth.

[universal4]

I totally and completely agree that bitcoin is not near as anonymous as those who claim it is.

The anonymous claims were made since the beginning of bitcoin, and it is still being promoted that way to a degree in many circles.

It is only the exchanges that are making promises not to divulge to the various governments true identities, and a handful do not follow standard KYC rules, although admittedly, many more are now than in previous years. (I have always said this)

I still think that there are valid reasons for opposing bitcoin, although more and more banks as well as wall street and even the real estate industry are studying blockchain technology and the idea of the open single ledger.

But I respect both sides, and do not think that someone that disagrees is posting nonsense or is a know-nothing as you stated above.

The fact also remains that since the IRS treats bitcoins as a commodity there are additional concerns that US residents should be prepared to deal with. Capital gains could take place even if an affiliate only held coins for a few days had the market value suddenly jumped.

If bitcoins were truly ready for prime time, where are all the coin exchanges operating in the US, with a Public US presence? Why are zero US Banking institutions not opening exchanges here on US soil?

Also, if it has not changed, I know that some states even have special rules in pace for bitcoin transactions over $300 such as those instituted by Florida in 2014.

Here is the wiki on bitcoin laws by country (not sure how updated it is)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legali...oin_by_country

And here is an article that covers some of the US state laws
https://coincenter.org/2015/06/track...tate-by-state/
The full chart in that article is linked here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...=0&single=true

Rick
Universal4

[Sherlock]

Sherlock,

I am confused about point 3 - Never use the same wallet twice

Do you mean throw away the wallet after each series of payments?
And generate a new wallet for each month / each program ?

Or just generate a new receiving address each time.

Is this UIGEA paranoia (and so less of an issue for non-US affiliates?) or just good secure practice for EVERYONE ?

Yes this is not just UIGEA paranoia, but yes it is a bit more valid for people who live in authoritarian regimes (US included). But it makes sense for everyone. It is something like to write clean code for programmers. Bitcoin will work without it, but it is potencial mess in near or distant future and it can be avoided with little costs

I will tell it broadly. If each address generally is used just once or as little times as possible, then both those things are valid:
- the people who look into blockchain can mine data much better, they will create some metadata and those metadata will be only more and more accurate; let's be honest, we are working here with legitimate business from pow of one country, but US wants to have Calvin and his business dead; so if nothing else this is a kind of protection

I can imagine that some address of bp can be in future flagged as gambling, therefore exchanges will not be able to convert money from that address. But also addresses that were receiving btc from that flagged address will be flagged then. So using new wallets is a protection for you as well. If some address of bp is flagged as gambling and your address too, then if those both addresses will not be used in future the money from them will be ok. But I think we are far from this point.


This first reason why to use one address for one payment (the blockchain analysis) is dominant. It is not in anyone's interest to show Fed's where the money go, but there is also no reason why to make life simpler to recent or future dataminers.

- on the other side we can hope your bank will want to understand the blockchain and then you can more easily prove that your bitcoins were legit, and there will be nonconfusing proof of exchange rate (if you receive to the one address same amount of USD twice, it will be different amount in btc); also I wrote above even bp want to ahve the accounting in simple way and they can show you on this and this date you got 40K usd... they maybe imagine that they will deal with less experienced users and it can be hard to explain them why - if it were always the same money - the amounts of btc were different


Just for the record. I do not care about this with my normal hotwallets, from which I pay programmer, send money to the local btc exchange etc. But I keep an eye on problematic transactions. Problematic transactions is for me everything connected to gambling and everything connected to drugs (I am buying up and there some XTC or LSD at darkmarkets).

I also keep separately 2 kinds of bitcoins: the ones received from bookies that I count as anonymous, because I believe US bookies will be discrete; and the ones I bought at exchanges, that I believe are the transparent ones. Each kind of bitcoins will have different use. E.g. with the anonymous ones I can pay whatever I want anonymously and the transparent ones I can use as proof of my legitimate wealth if I sell them into fiat money.

[Sherlock]

to universal4:
I am not sure if this is the right thread. So I will not comment here on US approach to bitcoin.

But to the anonymity. Bitcoin is either transparent, if the btc user wants (in extreme you can write your name next to your wallet in Facebook). Or is not transparent, if you want to tumble it or exchange it at 100% anonymous exchange to another cryptocurrency and back. It has nothing to do with KYC procedures at Bitcoin exchanges. Yes, they are all more strict. But it does not affect the anonymity of bitcoin. With development of tumblers and rising liquidity of other currencies (called altcoins), anybody who wants can get the anonymity regardless how many institutions know that he bought bitcoins of this or that address.

And this is just pure fact. It is not for a debate, it is a starting point to the debate. We can debate what will happen in the USA and there are certainly many possibilities. We can talk about development of bitcoin. About future price. How can be bitcoin used in gambling (or how it can fade away). That is all fine. But there is nothing to talk about when we talk about bitcoin anonymity.

Even my large bitcoin reserves that I bought at bitcoin exchanges can be anonymous if I wish for very small fee. But they are not anonymous now. That is one of the truly amazing features of bitcoin. I can decide. And that is why the KYC procedures at exchanges are useless and that is why everybody involved in bitcoin and understands the game is for the regulation. The motto is: Just give to the politicians what they want, because they really do not know what is going on. The bitcoin regulation at exchanges is a joke, but it is a public secret.

[Sherlock]

My own opinion here is that the swap to full bitcoin is a multi-pronged approach to:

1) Improve profits (it's cheaper to process)
2) Hide their transactions (I'm sure they're using tumblers to obfuscate the source of the bitcoins)
3) Free up other processing channels for customers (imagine how much they free up their ecommerce processing solutions by taking all the affiliate payments out of those systems and using it strictly for the players!)

I think their margins just went up quite a few percentage points and they're loving it. Smart business move really.

What I think was a milestone for bitcoin adoption were multisignature wallets quite recently introduced. The problem with bitcoin is that who has the private key has the bitcoin. That is ok for us individuals, but dangerous for corporations, where some clerk has access to all bitcoins. Multisigs wallets solve this. But I am saying that that there certainly are many pros for bitcoin, but few cons as well. And we all must learn how to handle the cons aka problems that we would not expect from money.