GP & eCOGRA...BS

[MichaelCorfman]

We did a written interview with Andrew Bevridge (published in the current issue of the GPWA Times magazine being distributed at iGB Down Under this week, and via mail pretty soon).

Here are a couple questions and answers from that interview:

Question: Did eCOGRA have direct access to Grand Privé's databases? Or did you have to rely on reports and information given to you by Grand Privé?

Answer: To eCOGRA’s knowledge, there is only one database. eCOGRA was provided with direct access to this database.

Question: What was Grand Privé's response to eCOGRA's inquiries about ReferSpot players?

Answer: eCOGRA was assured that all players were included on the GP Affiliate Program database, and that no other database existed.

Based on those answers and the reports about what eCOGRA found, my personal speculation is that after Grand Prive shut down the affiliate program they probably detagged pretty much all of the players from the affiliates. Given that Grand Prive was viewing the affiliate program was shut down and that they were not going to be giving any more revenue to affiliates on that basis, it would make sense that they might make a decision to do something like that.

Unfortunately, however, that would have left eCOGRA in a position where they had full access to the database, but would not see any players tied to the accounts of affiliates except where mistakes were made and the accounts were not severed. Then eCOGRA comes along and checks the database and cannot find evidence of the affiliates that filed claims being owed much of anything.

In this situation an archive of the database at the time the program was shut down would be required, and one would need to use the data from that copy of the database to reconstruct the associations betweeen players and affiliates. Only then would it be possible to determine what the affiliates were owed.

eCOGRA staff comprise accountants, not database programming experts insofar as I know, so my personal opinion is that even if they did have both current and archival copies of the database, they would have the expertise to determined what really happened.

In my opinion, the only way to be able to trust an audit would be if the auditing process also endeavored to calculate past commissions and confirmed that the past commissions that were calculated matched those reported at the time.

But it is clear to me that Grand Prive is going to refuse to give anyone else copies of the databases. And my personal opinion, as it has been for a while, is that Grand Prive needs to be put out of business.

But the only way I see to do that is to attack Grand Prive directly. In my view attacking eCOGRA and Microgaming is not effective. And I'm become more and more convinced as time goes on that attacking them rather than Grand Prive alienates them from affiliates, and thus decreases rather than increases the chance they will listen to the issues we have with Grand Prive.

So for my part the path I want to try at the moment is to increase the level of attacks against Grand Prive while doing everyting possible behind the scenes to see if progress can be made through other channels behind the scenes.

Michael

[Spearmaster]

... while doing everyting possible behind the scenes to see if progress can be made through other channels behind the scenes.

My thoughts exactly.

[Betpartners]

We did a written interview with Andrew Bevridge (published in the current issue of the GPWA Times magazine being distributed at iGB Down Under this week, and via mail pretty soon).

Here are a couple questions and answers from that interview:

Question: Did eCOGRA have direct access to Grand Privé's databases? Or did you have to rely on reports and information given to you by Grand Privé?

Answer: To eCOGRA’s knowledge, there is only one database. eCOGRA was provided with direct access to this database.

Question: What was Grand Privé's response to eCOGRA's inquiries about ReferSpot players?

Answer: eCOGRA was assured that all players were included on the GP Affiliate Program database, and that no other database existed.

Based on those answers and the reports about what eCOGRA found, my personal speculation is that after Grand Prive shut down the affiliate program they probably detagged pretty much all of the players from the affiliates. Given that Grand Prive was viewing the affiliate program was shut down and that they were not going to be giving any more revenue to affiliates on that basis, it would make sense that they might make a decision to do something like that.

Unfortunately, however, that would have left eCOGRA in a position where they had full access to the database, but would not see any players tied to the accounts of affiliates except where mistakes were made and the accounts were not severed. Then eCOGRA comes along and checks the database and cannot find evidence of the affiliates that filed claims being owed much of anything.

In this situation an archive of the database at the time the program was shut down would be required, and one would need to use the data from that copy of the database to reconstruct the associations betweeen players and affiliates. Only then would it be possible to determine what the affiliates were owed.

eCOGRA staff comprise accountants, not database programming experts insofar as I know, so my personal opinion is that even if they did have both current and archival copies of the database, they would have the expertise to determined what really happened.

In my opinion, the only way to be able to trust an audit would be if the auditing process also endeavored to calculate past commissions and confirmed that the past commissions that were calculated matched those reported at the time.

But it is clear to me that Grand Prive is going to refuse to give anyone else copies of the databases. And my personal opinion, as it has been for a while, is that Grand Prive needs to be put out of business.

But the only way I see to do that is to attack Grand Prive directly. In my view attacking eCOGRA and Microgaming is not effective. And I'm become more and more convinced as time goes on that attacking them rather than Grand Prive alienates them from affiliates, and thus decreases rather than increases the chance they will listen to the issues we have with Grand Prive.

So for my part the path I want to try at the moment is to increase the level of attacks against Grand Prive while doing everyting possible behind the scenes to see if progress can be made through other channels behind the scenes.

Michael

Michael the problem that presents itself with putting Grand Prive out of business is reliant on microgaming pulling the software license.

Bad publicity that has been heavy and consistent over the last year does not appear to be having the desired effect.

In addition the players they have will for the most remain loyal wholever there are no player issues.

They will also i have no doubt have alternative marketing and promotion avenues open to them that will continue to expand their player base.

Therefore it is hard to see how this would not involve microgaming.

Furthermore the response and reactions from microgaming hardly inspires one to believe that by turning off the pressure on microgaming to do the right thing will assist affiliates or players for that matter in the future.

So at this point i respectfully disgaree with you on this.

[MichaelCorfman]

Furthermore the response and reactions from microgaming hardly inspires one to believe that by turning off the pressure on microgaming to do the right thing will assist affiliates or players for that matter in the future.

My firm belief is that the actions of webmasters have mostly been by calling them names front of others, and not by approaching them in the right fashion behind the scenes. Not that contacting them in the right fashion behind the scenes is easy - it's damn difficult. But I do not believe that direct public actions against microgaming will harm microgaming more than it will harm the industry as a whole. So right now I firmly believe that such an approach amounts to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Michael

[giggles7p]

What i don't understand is back when i was still earning with GP my stats where always split....Grand Prive stats and Legacy stats...now if they still have the GP stats and info, why don't they have the Referspot stats and info...they were both included in our accounts all the way up to the end when they shut down GP......so it makes no sense for them to say they lost, deleted, etc...referspot stats .....?????

Can someone explain to me how they can still have one but not the other..?

[Betpartners]

My firm belief is that the actions of webmasters have mostly been by calling them names front of others, and not by approaching them in the right fashion behind the scenes. Not that contacting them in the right fashion behind the scenes is easy - it's damn difficult. But I do not believe that direct public actions against microgaming will harm microgaming more than it will harm the industry as a whole. So right now I firmly believe that such an approach amounts to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Michael

Oh i agree Michael, name calling and such like wont get anywhere but that does not mean that we cannot let microgaming off the hook with a to maintain good relations with them in future.

I also belive firmly that behind the scenes activities can pay dividends.

But at what point is enough enough.

Lets say we take a step back from Microgaming over Grand Prive, what about the next program that closes down.

In fact we could look at Sunderbet, Microgaming license them, they have not only closed an affiliate program down but rebranded and opened up another one, all the while microgaming licenses them.

Sunderbet in fact is an exact replica of the Grand Prive situation but gains far less publicity, there is a thread on this forum disucssing what they ahve done.

So its not just Grand Prive Michael, there is more as we speak and unless we continue to expose these situations then it will be allowed to be repeated time and again.

There are others ways of exposing all this other than by name calling and we should utilise that.

[Dominique]

Giggles: What i don't understand is back when i was still earning with GP my stats where always split....Grand Prive stats and Legacy stats...now if they still have the GP stats and info, why don't they have the Referspot stats and info...they were both included in our accounts all the way up to the end when they shut down GP......so it makes no sense for them to say they lost, deleted, etc...referspot stats .....?????

This is true - I had forgotten all about that! Thanks for bringing it up!

In the quickstats on the aff site entry page, the stats were divided among Grand Prive players and Referspot players!

[GamTrak]

But the only way I see to do that is to attack Grand Prive directly. In my view attacking eCOGRA and Microgaming is not effective. And I'm become more and more convinced as time goes on that attacking them rather than Grand Prive alienates them from affiliates, and thus decreases rather than increases the chance they will listen to the issues we have with Grand Prive.

So for my part the path I want to try at the moment is to increase the level of attacks against Grand Prive while doing everyting possible behind the scenes to see if progress can be made through other channels behind the scenes.

I respectfully disagree. To me it's like saying don't blame Toyota for the gas peddle situation blame the dealership instead! Not a good example, but how I see your statement.

IMO just going after Grand Prive is NOT the correct thing to do because without a software license from Microgaming and eCOGRA they can't operate business as usual.

BTW who needs a face when your body has been damaged!

[giggles7p]

This is true - I had forgotten all about that! Thanks for bringing it up!

In the quickstats on the aff site entry page, the stats were divided among Grand Prive players and Referspot players!

Yes, and all my earnings were from the "legacy" players which were the referspot accounts!.....so i was earning up to the day they closed GP from my referspot players.....but now they say i am owned nothing, that i had no active players and that all stats from referspot were lost, deleted...etc.....Bull crap, and more Bull crap.

[Dominique]

Yep, almost all of my earnings were from the Referspot legacy also...

So they were tracked seperately. Displayed seperately. Fed into the aff site seperately.

[GamTrak]

Yep, almost all of my earnings were from the Referspot legacy also...

So they were tracked seperately. Displayed seperately. Fed into the aff site seperately.

Same here. My income was mostly from legacy players in the referspot system.

It's POSSIBLE that the figure they paid me via the settlement could have been just for the GP program as I had not accumulated as many depositors as with referspot.

[MichaelCorfman]

IMO just going after Grand Prive is NOT the correct thing to do because without a software license from Microgaming and eCOGRA they can't operate business as usual.

Yes, and the same is true about their gaming license in Kahnawake.

I completely agree that it is correct to work to have Grand Prive's licenses revoked. But, I would submit that attacking those who grant the licenses is simply not likely to produce results. It alienates those whose support is needed to produce the desired outcome, and while that can sometimes produce results, regulatory agencies and large companies generally respond poorly to attacks based on the assertion they are doing a bad job. Much better, in my opinion, is to attack the company who should have their license revoked while working behind the scenes, and with forceful but sound business arguments, to persuade the agencies and companies to distance themselves from the rogue.

And I say that from the perspective that I don't think I have accomplished what I should have behind the scenes yet. And from the perspective that I think further attacks will interfere with negotiations behind the scenes.

You, more that most folks, should be able to appreciate the fact that attacking others is not the best way to win them over to your perspective.

Michael

[Daera]

At the moment, I have received a grand total of:

0

PMs.

I have some data from two other affiliates which I approached separately. But at the moment it is looking very much like the other affiliates simply don't care - in which case I will not waste any further time.

PM Sent.

Thanks Spearmaster!

[GamTrak]

You, more that most folks, should be able to appreciate the fact that attacking others is not the best way to win them over to your perspective.

You are 100% correct as I would have loved to have had more folks saying that to those attacking me during my ordeal, but I'll take your advice under consideration.

I will however continue to believe that MGS needs to do more.

[bonustreak]

Spear I have just now seen this thread and now understand why you asked me for the data, I am so sorry that I did not send you all the correct data you asked for the first time. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this for us, I think that really rocks!! Please let me know what I can do to help.

My offer of linking up still stands please send me a pm anyone interested and until something has been settled or discovered I do not plan to spend time on this thread.

[Spearmaster]

Thanks guys - getting some responses now. Rest assured this information will be kept confidential.

[MichaelCorfman]

I will however continue to believe that MGS needs to do more.

And I agree with you 1000%.

The real question is how do we accomplish that objective?

Michael

[GamTrak]

And I agree with you 1000%.

The real question is how do we accomplish that objective?

Michael

Being that it's almost impossible to dictate to folks or change their moral compass I have no idea, but I'm hopeful that you and others will figure it out.

Main Entry: moral compass
Part of Speech: n
Definition: anything which serves to guide a person's decisions based on morals or virtues.
Example: Hopefully, the lawyer has a moral compass.

[nitro2]

The real question is how do we accomplish that objective?

The only objective that can be accomplished is to expose Bailey as a microgaming shill.

As far as the other goel goes the conscioussness is too splittered already too put any kind of effective pressure on microgaming even in the very unlikely case that some of the bigger figures decided to do so - there was a chance but it's too late now...

My last message on this board.

[Dominique]

Ahh, the first rebirth of nitro.