How do you pay US affiliates? No advance warning

[TheGooner]

Hell - I'll be even more candid.

If gambling companies are sending payments into the US and using 3rd party processors to HIDE the fact that this is gambling money then according to the current UIGEA regulations that program (and affiliates) ARE engaged in illegal money laundering.

I looked into this when it first occurred with Ladbrokes, because I was thinking of offering my accounts (or setting up fresh accounts) to help affiliates who were stuck without a payment method - but after investigation I decided that I would not touch this area with a bargepole.

I wince whenever I read it hinted that programs are working around this. It is not an area to be trifled with.

I understand why Ladbrokes and other big legitimate Euro companies want no part of doing that - despite it being unpopular with US based affiliates. But the issue lies with the US government enacted UIGEA statutes.

[PROFRBcom]

Gooner,

Are you saying that your recent Carbon Poker affiliate payment, and your acceptance of that payment means that you are an international money launderer? That seems a bit harsh no?

[TheGooner]

Are you saying that your recent Carbon Poker affiliate payment, and your acceptance of that payment means that you are an international money launderer? That seems a bit harsh no?

Huh? You need to explain your wooly thinking?
I have no US domiciled accounts, I am not a US citizen, or a US company.
No - I have not breached any UIGEA law.

While the US government has some reach - their domestic laws pretty much are restricted to the US.
The UIGEA legislation that makes it illegal to send/receive money to/from or within the US from "Illegal Gambling" activities...
(whatever that phrase might mean - but that's a derail for another time).

But If I had accepted payments for US affiliates, and then forwarded them on through my own accounts thus removing/hiding the original gambling source of the payment then it would be money laundering ...

[mojo]

It's not illegal for US players and affiliates to partake in online gambling activities. Nor is it money laundering.

Certainly that was the interpretation around 2006 when no one knew what the heck the UIGEA meant. Since then however, it's clear that players gambling online in the USA is not illegal.

All the UIGEA did was put the burden on the banks and processors to not accept gambling transactions. The banks complied and stepped up security but the UIGEA didn't turn out quite the way it was planned. It's almost unenforceable for players and affiliates. Banks have complied but now you see more and more processors coming in with the use of things like opinion letters.

Even on Black Friday no US players were charged and while their funds we held for a bit, US players ended up getting paid. By the bank. In the USA.

What we have here in this case with Brightshare is that they are trying to play by what the US wants so that they can have an easier time getting in on the US game. I believe I read that it's taken into consideration if they continue to take US players that they will have a harder time getting into the US market. That's fine and I get that. Already they do not take US players, affiliates aren't earning on US dollars and haven't in years. But to say they cannot pay is incorrect.

This is all my opinion only and I am not a lawyer.

[PROFRBcom]

The UIGEA legislation that makes it illegal to send/receive money to/from or within the US from "Illegal Gambling" activities...
(whatever that phrase might mean - but that's a derail for another time).

Actually it doesn't do as you've stated. Not according to the attorney's I've spoken with. Receiving funds is perfectly legal for players. For US based affiliates, there is no issue as it is marketing income, not "illegal gambling income." Sending money is a murkier set of waters, but as long as an individual isn't telling lies to their bank in order to get transactions processed, there should be no issue. And even then, it wouldn't be a UIGEA violation, but something else. The UIGEA violation would be the bank/credit card company's burden, not the individual.

But If I had accepted payments for US affiliates, and then forwarded them on through my own accounts thus removing/hiding the original gambling source of the payment then it would be money laundering ...

Again, I would disagree with this based on the legal counsel I have sought out. I wouldn't want to participate in such behavior, but if the income was solely affiliate marketing income and NOT poker winnings, casino winnings, sportsbook winnings, etc, then it should be alright, legally speaking, as long as a clear trail was established and the receiver of said funds properly reported them.

There is a difference between attempting to conceal the source of the funds and accepting funds in a completely legal jurisdiction and then repatriating them to the United States.

[MichaelCorfman]

I have seen this before. There is no excuse not to pay US affys.

If a program won't pay US affiliates (using the excuse they 'can't') it's because a) they don't want to and b) they don't want to.

Every program worth their salt pays US affiliates.

I have spend a lot of time looking at payment processing issues in general, and I have a few comments I think are worth sharing.

1. Independently of the legality of making payments to affiliates in the US, it is not easy for a company that derives its income from gaming related activities to do so. Banks are so afraid of UIGEA that they don't want to touch anything related to online gambling with a ten foot poll independent of its legality. Even the legal licensed gambling sites in New Jersey frequently have issues dealing with banks.
2. Almost all payment processors making payments into the US related to gaming structure transactions so the relationship with online gaming is obfuscated.
3. When a gaming operator has relationships with payment processors that allow payments into the United States, such relationships are intrinsically unstable because of the issues outlined above, and can be severed to the complete surprise of the payment processor.
4. So operators absolutely can be in the situation where they are unable to pay into US bank accounts against their will, and without any clear path to be able to pay into US bank accounts once again.
5. As a US based affiliate, the only sure way to get around the risks of overseas programs not being able to pay you despite their best efforts is to open an overseas bank account. Something that can be both complex and expensive.
6. Like Gooner, I have also looked into acting as an intermediary to facilitate payments to US affiliates. My conclusion is that to do so would be extremely difficult without violating the law. To do it legally (without being guilty of money laundering) you have to share with the relevant government organizations, and with your bank, that you are acting as a money transfer agent dealing with gambling related funds. Most, if not all US banks, would shut your bank account down if you told them that.
7. Pretty much any affiliate program that has a way to pay US affiliates would not make any public statements about how it is done in a public forum such as this. Any public statements could easily backfire and result in the payment process no longer being available to them.
8. We were once approached about helping certain central authorities in the US banking system identify companies involved in gaming so their transactions could be blocked. You can imagine how I reacted to such a request. But you can guess that their are businesses making money off of helping banks to identify questionable payers. And I know that banks will and do shut down bank accounts when they see transactions between a bank account and others on such lists.

Michael

[-Shay-]

Pretty much any affiliate program that has a way to pay US affiliates would not make any public statements about how it is done in a public forum such as this. Any public statements could easily backfire and result in the payment process no longer being available to them.



Michael

If this is the legitimate reason that the program cannot make a public statement, then they would not have made the below (public) statement.

Hi Everyone,

We believe that we may have a solution for US affiliates.

We sincerely apologize for the delay in payments to US affiliates. If you are a US affiliate, please update your banking details with wire account details and we will do a test payment to your account, if successful we will continue to pay you via wire.

Once you have changed your details, I need you to either contact me via email support@brightshare.com , Skype: Levi_brightshare.com or contact your account manager directly.

We thank you for your patience as we resolve this issue.

... This is all that was asked... Not too difficult a question to answer.

How long between the "test payment" and the actual owed payment should affiliates expect there to be? Given how long this issue has gone on and the lapse of time between responses, it is important that a timeline be established and stuck to.

[MichaelCorfman]

If this is the legitimate reason that the program cannot make a public statement, then they would not have made the below (public) statement.

... This is all that was asked... Not too difficult a question to answer.

The statement made provides no information at all about the payment processor. I didn't make my post as a response to the questions in the last couple days. Rather, it was the first time I read this thread, so I was primarily responding with respect to issues and questions raised in earlier posts, and most specifically to mojo's post from very early on that I had quoted.

Michael

[mojo]

Quote Originally Posted by mojo View Post
I have seen this before. There is no excuse not to pay US affys.

If a program won't pay US affiliates (using the excuse they 'can't') it's because a) they don't want to and b) they don't want to.

Every program worth their salt pays US affiliates.

Right. I stand by this. There is a difference between cannot and don't want to. Of course they can. Every single program does or we wouldn't be in business.I can't remember when a program didn't pay me.

Yes, there are challenges. If they don't want to pay US affy's according to their interpretation of the law that's a different story. Settle with your US affiliates and don't take new ones. It's unacceptable to continue to benefit and then refuse payment and as thread title indicates 'no advance warning'. For months on end the program didn't pay. They continued to benefit from US affiliates traffic without pay and it's condoned it seems. In the end Brightshare did the right thing and resolved the issue, good news.

As far as the rest goes it may be for a different thread. There are different opinions like this one: Why Are Credit Card Companies Such As Visa And MasterCard No Longer Afraid Of U.S. Gambling Laws?. Everyone should get their own legal advice that they are comfortable with.

US affiliates claim and pay their taxes. I do not feel it can be classified as money laundering nor would I want to be seen as involved in such a thing.

[universal4]

It appears they have no intention of paying US Affiliates and I think they should clarify that.

Either tell us how you plan on making payments or state you have no intention and stop accepting US Affiliates.

It has been months since this discussion started and I see no way to set a payment method for US Affiliates, and I think you should disclose that.

Rick
Universal4

[Redbush54]

As we continue on with no response I hearby ask that sponsorship be revoked. There is nothing in their terms and conditions stating that US affiliates will not be paid but yet they have continued to ignore the question. There has been no communication here since Levi made the statement they felt they have found a solution. IMO they have no intentions of paying US players and should have sponsorship revoked along with obtaining the status of ROGUE. Seriously hoping Michael and Anthony take action and do what's right for affiliates.

[-Shay-]

As we continue on with no response I hearby ask that sponsorship be revoked. There is nothing in their terms and conditions stating that US affiliates will not be paid but yet they have continued to ignore the question. There has been no communication here since Levi made the statement they felt they have found a solution. IMO they have no intentions of paying US players and should have sponsorship revoked along with obtaining the status of ROGUE. Seriously hoping Michael and Anthony take action and do what's right for affiliates.

It is a crime that they've remained sponsors in good standing this long considering their inability to pay.

[-Shay-]

Hi everyone,

I would like to apologize for the delay in response to this post.
BrightShare did work with PaySpark until very recently. Our processor dropped them as a source quite suddenly, and we ourselves were delayed in receiving notification of this change.
BrightShare is working on a solution at present and we are hoping to secure another source shortly.
We are also lowering our withdrawal amounts to help better service our affiliate partners, so this is exciting news.
I would like to assure everyone, we are working behind the scenes to get this done.
I will be happy to notify you the moment we secure a new processing method for our US partners.
Just email me at Support@BrightShare.com.

source

That post was made on 5 March 2015

12 March this is written

I understand your frustration. I assure you we are working on finding a solution so that we can pay all of our US affiliates as soon as possible. We are 100% committed to paying you.

In the meantime, we have updated our website to reflect that our only current payment solution for US affiliates is Click2Pay, for affiliates who already had existing accounts with us. So any new affiliates signing up at this point should be aware of the situation. You can see our payment options page here: http://www.brightshare.com/payment-options.html

We appreciate your patience and cooperation, and if you have any specific concerns about your own earnings payments, please contact me directly at support@brightshare.com.

source

Noteworthy is that the "payment options" page referenced in this post does not work for me at the time of this writing.

Strangely, I see a bunch of testimonials - but none of them reflect the US affiliate payment situation. I also see nothing on the "commissions" page regarding the inability or unwillingness to pay US Affilaites.

Then, on 12 May

Hi Everyone,

We believe that we may have a solution for US affiliates.

We sincerely apologize for the delay in payments to US affiliates. If you are a US affiliate, please update your banking details with wire account details and we will do a test payment to your account, if successful we will continue to pay you via wire.

Once you have changed your details, I need you to either contact me via email support@brightshare.com , Skype: Levi_brightshare.com or contact your account manager directly.

We thank you for your patience as we resolve this issue.

source

Apparently, the test payments didn't turn favourable results?

To save my dollar for the tap dance, I do not have an account with bright share. I am merely an interested third party making observations and wondering why the hell this situation has not yet been resolved.

[Anthony]

I will get an answer from Brightshare regarding U.S. payments.

[-Shay-]

Any word on this?

[universal4]

I just heard from them a few days ago and forgot to post about it.

I have been told I can get paid by wire, and the amount of positive carry over they have on record matches what I expected it to be, but it is well below their minimum payment threshold, although they have offered to pay me this amount if I so choose and pay the fees, which would leave about enough to go out to dinner.....if I wasn't very hungry and stayed away from the nice restaurants at Disney.

This makes me feel better knowing that most other affiliates will likely be able to make similar arrangements and get paid the funds they are owed.

There was no mention of the future, so I am undecided on whether to pay the fees or have them pay the amount to one of my fellow affiliates in other countries that have better methods of payment such as Neteller etc....

I completely understand this was a little bit out of their control, but the failure to disclose bothers me a bit.

Rick
Universal4

[-Shay-]

I just heard from them a few days ago and forgot to post about it.

I have been told I can get paid by wire, and the amount of positive carry over they have on record matches what I expected it to be, but it is well below their minimum payment threshold, although they have offered to pay me this amount if I so choose and pay the fees, which would leave about enough to go out to dinner.....if I wasn't very hungry and stayed away from the nice restaurants at Disney.

This makes me feel better knowing that most other affiliates will likely be able to make similar arrangements and get paid the funds they are owed.

There was no mention of the future, so I am undecided on whether to pay the fees or have them pay the amount to one of my fellow affiliates in other countries that have better methods of payment such as Neteller etc....

I completely understand this was a little bit out of their control, but the failure to disclose bothers me a bit.

Rick
Universal4

As a sign of good faith (and as an apology for not disclosing this to the community), perhaps they would pay the wire fee just to show they can and will pay? A little good will goes a long way in situations like this.

[-Shay-]

I just heard from them a few days ago and forgot to post about it.

I have been told I can get paid by wire, and the amount of positive carry over they have on record matches what I expected it to be, but it is well below their minimum payment threshold, although they have offered to pay me this amount if I so choose and pay the fees, which would leave about enough to go out to dinner.....if I wasn't very hungry and stayed away from the nice restaurants at Disney.

This makes me feel better knowing that most other affiliates will likely be able to make similar arrangements and get paid the funds they are owed.

There was no mention of the future, so I am undecided on whether to pay the fees or have them pay the amount to one of my fellow affiliates in other countries that have better methods of payment such as Neteller etc....

I completely understand this was a little bit out of their control, but the failure to disclose bothers me a bit.

Rick
Universal4

Have they demonstrated the ability to pay US affiliates yet or was this a mere expulsion of hot air by Brightshare?

[universal4]

Like I said previously, I have been offered a wire if I pay the fees, but with fee amount on their side, plus what I pay my bank for the incoming, I would end up with far less than the total combined fees.

I have struggled with the fact that maybe just maybe it is better to eat the fees and spend the balance at McDonalds instead of allowing it to sit in their bank account....

Rick
Universal4

[TheGooner]

Like I said previously, I have been offered a wire if I pay the fees, but with fee amount on their side, plus what I pay my bank for the incoming, I would end up with far less than the total combined fees.

It sounds like you need to attend a conference and arrange a meet-up to receive a "plain brown envelope" of cash?


Perhaps Amsterdam in 2016 - see you there ?