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  1. #1
    DaftDog's Avatar
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    Unhappy Programs Lack of Transparency Make Affiliates Suspicious

    I had a few queries with regards to my stats with a particular program that I deal with. One of the questions I asked was "Why don't your reports show player cash-outs?" Their reply, from the casino manager himself, was "Withdrawals are currently not sent from the platform provider to Income Access. Most likely its not something that is going to happen in the future either."

    Short and sweet, now ****-off.

    Why would a platform want to hide critical information like that? There are some programs that hide player deposits from their stats which is also equally baffling in my opinion.

    This lack of transparency makes me, and I'm sure many others, very suspicious.

    Maybe Income Access should force their clients to show this information.

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    +1 there needs to be a unified affiliate provider, like Affiliate Window for other industries.
    Currently dipping my toe back in the water with my pet project site, Vegan Chocolate.

  4. #3
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    This lack of transparency makes me, and I'm sure many others, very suspicious.
    Been saying this for years now. The affiliate backend most affiliate programs provide us with is a rather watered-down version since it lacks client withdrawals (as you pointed out), they also don't indicate from which country the player is from.

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  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by cass View Post
    they also don't indicate from which country the player is from.
    This is a critical point in my opinion.

    With tax implications varying significantly from country to country - particularly with POCT for those of us with a heavily biased UK customer base - being able to see that deductions are being applied by player based on where they are from and not in some arbitrary, uniform manner across all players is vital.

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftDog View Post
    Maybe Income Access should force their clients to show this information.
    Sadly this wont happen. Their clients pay them, not affiliates.

    Funny enough on the topic of IA, over the years I heard from two separate affiliate managers from differing companies that worked with the software saying that it has all the options for de tagging and manipulating stats that is shown to affiliates.

    Maybe that's standard for all the software platforms like MyAffiliate and Netrefer - I only heard that about IA.

    Really would like to see an independent tracking system where all info is available. Probably would have pay for it too.

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkytoe View Post
    Funny enough on the topic of IA, over the years I heard from two separate affiliate managers from differing companies that worked with the software saying that it has all the options for de tagging and manipulating stats that is shown to affiliates.
    I've always wondered about some sponsors and whether they are able to de-tag players or manipulate the statistics before allowing the affiliates to see the stat reports.
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  11. #7
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    I agree that the country the player is from is extremely important.

    On cashouts, I can live without that data, since I am more concerned about feeling warm and fuzzy about whether I feel I am seeing fair reporting in relationship to the net win.

    I can see where cashout data can be helpful, especially in cases where you get a larger winner since it allows you to see how much opportunity there is whether they may play off the funds.

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    Transparancy = trust. The more they hide the less I trust them. It's as simple as that! Wish it wasn't so but with all the rouge programs we've seen over the past 15 years people shouldn't be surprised that affiliates have trust issues.

    I don't see why all programs shows wins, losses, gross, bonus fees, license fees, bank fees, other fees, deposited amount, withdrawn amount. It's not a technical challange as some AM's keep saying.

    Would love to hear some AM's feedback in this thread.

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    Should also note that IA let's operators add any deductions they want that do not get shown to affiliates. So they can add say a 40% maintenance fee so when you see your stats you are actually already down 40% on what it looks like you're getting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerman99 View Post
    Should also note that IA let's operators add any deductions they want that do not get shown to affiliates. So they can add say a 40% maintenance fee so when you see your stats you are actually already down 40% on what it looks like you're getting.
    Exactly and most programs are not transparent with regards to their deductions/fees

  18. #11
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    I'd like to see an unplayed money stat added as well.

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  20. #12
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    Default Currently it is a lost cause and probably always will be...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaftDog View Post
    This lack of transparency makes me, and I'm sure many others, very suspicious.
    Has anything changed in the industry since I posted this in 2010:

    Affiliates Must Have Greater Access To Player Data In This Industry


    It wouldn't take much to create a system with a sufficient level of transparency that could make people feel sufficiently confident. Obviously that is not what people want to do, however.

    I don't really trust any of the programs. Look at the reality. The love of money is a root of all sorts of evil - including lying, stealing and fraud - and is one of the biggest motives that motivates people in this world to begin with - and certainly must be the primary motive for many or most who are in this industry to begin with as well, yet who may have no great level of conscience or scruples. Even if they start out with good intentions, the love of money can quickly and easily take over.

    The love of money is a root of all sorts of evil - that is an accurate reflection of the oft misquoted portion of the Bible from which it is taken. Which brings us to the "golden rule," also derived from the Bible. The simple principle that one should treat others as they would like to be treated themselves.

    The reality is that from a technical standpoint it would take no effort at all beyond the effort required to make any affiliate system to make one that conforms to a "golden rule" way of doing things that could make affiliates feel more confident and more motivated to promote someone's program. Obviously, however, that is not what people have wanted to do, instead of what we have - which is a whole mishmash of systems that do nothing of the sort and are designed to preserve the extremely lopsided advantage and lack of transparency affiliate programs and operators have in the affiliate marketing relationship.

    It is really just an indication of how the Internet is still the "wild west" in this regard. There are a few winners that programs and operators may feel they have to keep happy with decent earnings, but for the most part I don't doubt there is a lot of cheating, reduction, de-tagging, and just plain nonreporting/noncrediting going on. That certainly is my impression of my own experiences.

    It helps if one has some certain knowledge of IT as well. In other words, in a nutshell, one should realize that fundamentally it is all just data in a database. And data in a database, as anyone with any experience with database development or administration knows, can easily be changed or deleted in the blink of an eye so to speak. And there tend to be numerous ways and avenues of access in which this can be done. So to wonder, for instance, if a certain affiliate software system may allow a program to do that is really a moot point, as there is always not only one way, but often multiple ways. That is why what would help is greater access to more data, so that an affiliate can have enough access that meets a "golden rule" level of confidence and creates some reasonable degree of credibility about what is being presented to them. This is just as feasible and "doable" as what is already being done, but obviously that is not what operators and programs want to do or have ever wanted to do.
    Last edited by Big City Jack; 27 June 2015 at 2:26 pm.

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  22. #13
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    These options Do already exist, it's not a case of rebuilding... The operators already have these options.. they just choose not to allow affiliates to have it, there is one software that has every detail, realtime clicks, real time deposits what every bet taking place does, every cent spent on the casino which game etc that's the 5dimes platform.. over 10 years old but 100% transparent and Big City Jack has a point, I have a few programs that Im certain just push through what they feel is necessary to keep me happy.. That's why I never give them the prime positions which is worth far much more than the commission that they would have to pay me, Their nickel and diming costs them thousands, I can't prove it but judging by results from other programs im 99% sure.. the only reason I keep them on is not to 404 the pages I have written and I suppose somebody has to be the least recommended program

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkytoe View Post
    on the topic of IA, over the years I heard from two separate affiliate managers from differing companies that worked with the software saying that it has all the options for de tagging ...
    I am sure de-tagging is happening. I have massive recent concerns regarding two of the biggest UK-facing companies using IA, but proving it . .

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  26. #15
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    I said it before, I'd love to see the admin area of any of these programs to see precisely, what control there is.

  27. #16
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    edit: I did not read wonderpunter's report b4 I wrote mine

    I would like to point out here for programs (sportsbooks only) that are transparent. And it is not surprising that players and clicks there have greater value than elsewhere.

    3. Tipico, SportInterAction, Topbet - they at least show tax deductions or state there are no deductions
    2. Unibet.com, Bettingpartners - one can see at least cash transactions of every player; deductions as taxes or fees for affiliate software are unknown, but for sure exist
    1. 5dimes and PinnacleSports - they are the winners: 5dimes - affiliate can see every bet by any bettor referred, it is a real shame that nobody follows them, because their systam must be 10-15 years old; Pinnaclesports at IA is horrible, but I have still access to the old very simple in-house system, where one can see all fees and all cash transactions of any bettor referred sorted by ID [I will not share the url of the old affiliate system, because Pinnacle probably does not want to share it anymore].

    Sidenotes:
    - there is no transparent UK bookie
    - the most transparent bookies operate(d) in grey area, so I am "a little" bit angry, when I read arguments, where pro-regulation guys trying to persuade everyone, how safer then the industry will be. No it will not be. The more regulated businesses we see, the more they focus only for the regulation and nothing more because it is enough. So the paradox here is, that I as affiliate, ceteris paribus rather work with guys who have some Carribean or Indian licences. Especially now with the crazy EU VAT and other tax laws is everything completely crazy. I do not blame only affiliates for this. I understand that the big guys can not easily operate through offshore companies and zero taxes (even when I would be happy for that). But some push towards standardization of stats would be nice.
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    I am an affiliate myself but have also previously worked as an affiliate manager (in the retail industry, not gambling) and I have seen how easy it is to remove sales, clicks, leads, commission etc etc if needed. The tools are there - to believe something else would be ignorant.

    I really would like more affiliates to be open about programs they suspect or know shave earnings. Our community here should help eachother out as much as possible. But I also do understand that it's problematic when there is hard to show evidence. There is not enough data to prove anything.

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  31. #18
    Big City Jack is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by medmi View Post
    I am an affiliate myself but have also previously worked as an affiliate manager [...] I really would like more affiliates to be open about programs
    Excellent post, and I'll second that.

    Another reason why it's so important to change the status quo if anyone wants to create any real semblance of credibility and fairness in such a lopsided relationship is because even if the program or operator itself has good intentions and some scruples, there is always the very real risk of unscrupulous insiders with access causing trouble, fraud and theft.

    Let's go back to the issue of how easy it is when you know about data and databases. Aside from the issue of "de-tagging" and so forth, how many people think about the risk and temptation of "re-tagging" among insiders with access faced with the possibility of easy money, even big easy money if you've brought in some lucrative accounts? You as the affiliate can put in all the hard work, time and investment to refer lucrative traffic, build up an income source that might actually matter to you and your family, but some insider can decide they want to just give it to themselves or their own family or friends. No matter what software tool or what data manipulation language is used by that tool or by someone manually, such as SQL being an example of the most common and most popular language for instance, in the blink of an eye, it's as easy as this:

    UPDATE Player_Data_Table SET Affiliate_ID = "Me_or_My_Friends_or_Familys_ID#" WHERE AffiliateID = "GPWA_or_APCW_Affiliated_Member_ID#"
    And of course, you can refine it further or limit the scope as desired.

    And if all we are getting is the generally ridiculous amount and kind of data that we normally get in affiliate account interfaces, we can never know what's being done or whether anything was done. And if it's not even being done by the program or operator itself, but rather by a rogue insider against their wishes, they might never know, either. So something's got to change, and affiliates should receive a level of access to the data that leads to credibility and awareness for all referred player accounts if there is to be any confidence in this industry.

    What I'd like to see and what I think may be a good idea is if affiliates were to finally organize and convene to some degree about this topic, and hammer out what should be seen and shown in terms of access to data for credibility, confidence, and a reasonable degree of tracking of referred player customers so that one might even have some reason to not only be confident the player even exists any more, but exists under their original affiliate ID. I feel that this kind of meeting, organizing and discussing the issue would be a good starting point rather than the status quo, and rather than the topic simply coming up every few years or so in a small discussion forum thread like this and the one I posted in 2010 while the status quo remains.
    Last edited by Big City Jack; 29 June 2015 at 11:24 pm.

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  33. #19
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    Transparency is critical in this industry, it is important to always pay close attention to the data.
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    The first step of getting anywhere with this might be to hear the AM's take on this. Do you see this as a problem? Comments? Why are you not offering all available stats through your software?

    We are alot of affiliates that are concerned and want a dialog.

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