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  1. #21
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    I'm glad to see that it's not just me that is experiencing poor results with some of these programs.

  2. #22
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    Default Programs that are terrible for you?

    Things have slown up in the past month, you guys experiancing the same?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  3. #23
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    Last week, yes. But this week, the issue seemed to have fixed itself.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    32Red has never (read : not once) produced a + value player for me. We have 30 or so players with them, all of them on negative earnings for the day, week, month, lifetime.
    After two + years, we have FINALLY produced a player that has (so far) resulted in earnings for us. Every other player we have sent has a negative balance in terms of affiliate earnings. The month is still young though, so I'm not holding my breath for actually being paid out by 32Red, so for now - this line item on my bucket list is not in immediate danger of being crossed off.

  5. #25
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    Coral for us - Had a whale that caused us to be temporarily suspended, since then our backend stats have been broken. Asked Anthony to look to fix on numerous occassions and still no fix. Conversions can be quite good when pushed.

    Had good conversions & earnings with Will Hill, Skybet, Bet365, Betfred & Bet Victor.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    After two + years, we have FINALLY produced a player that has (so far) resulted in earnings for us. Every other player we have sent has a negative balance in terms of affiliate earnings. The month is still young though, so I'm not holding my breath for actually being paid out by 32Red, so for now - this line item on my bucket list is not in immediate danger of being crossed off.
    I have players from 3 years ago that are still earning me commission every few months or so, strange how it works for some but not others!

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  8. #27
    JackTenSuited is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    32Red has never (read : not once) produced a + value player for me. We have 30 or so players with them, all of them on negative earnings for the day, week, month, lifetime.
    32red is a strange one, earnt a small amount with them, but as a player I found them to be amazing and was very loyal to them a while back and thought the same would be said for my players but it just doesn't seem to be the case.

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  10. #28
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    Everything about 32Red strongly suggests they would perform quite well for us. I also have experience with them as a player and couldn't say enough good things about them. That's part of the reason I find it ridiculously strange that amongst my player base, all but this one new player has a negative earnings balance with them across day, week, month, and lifetime earnings.

    Our affiliate manager was unable to offer an explanation beyond "your players are just lucky". Somehow, I suspect that the affiliate is being stuck with the majority of their generous bonus scheme costs but what do I know. The AM also says that the corrective action to get past the luck is to push the program on our sites. #nothanks

  11. #29
    Roulette Zeitung is offline Public Member
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    Maybe I can see the day when threads will published with titles like "Which affiliate manager is the worst and who knows his address?", "What was the most most most terrible program for you in 2014, last month, last week, 5 minutes ago?", "Why I have no idea about math and normal conversion swings" and "Why there's always someone else to blame?"

    If the only-reading audience tries to find in this forum positive posts about programs or personal appreciation for named individuals (affiliate manager or other representatives), they have to invest a lot of time.

    This partly insubstantial classifying and only negative writing or opening only negative threads creeps slowly but surely to the lowest level.

    I have nothing against criticism, but creating an appropriate balance is equally important. Dozens of my posts -and every post is work and donating lifetime- are personal appreciations for people I work with and for people I don't work with!

    Conversion rates ... conversion rates ... most terrible program ... blablabla

    We should take a good look at ourselves before we point a finger at others, because more than 50% of "conversion rate shoutings" are home-grown issues.

    -Are you using crappy SEO sites without good content?
    -Freeloaders entering your site like moths the lamp in the night?
    -Do your target group really match the program?
    -Do you know gambling math and standard deviations, that affects conversion rates?
    -Have you ever heard the words "patience" and "long run results"?
    -Did you wrote more than 10 times nice words to a affiliate manager or program representative here in this forum? Don't wait for the translation! Yes or no?"

    My title suggestion for a new thread: "Collection of affiliate manager wanted poster"

    Or ... with a different view on things but with the same result if you think twice ...

    "Programs, that are wonderful for you?"

    Leopold

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  13. #30
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    Thanks Leopold, it's always better to take a positive spin on things. You bring up an important point to consider.

    We should all keep this in mind.

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  15. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WATP View Post
    This is a great thread, cheers to thebookiesoffers for starting it.

    The issue I found when starting out doing the affiliate thing was; I had absolutely no idea who to promote for my visitors and for getting good depositors and long term revenue for myself Basically, I just went to a few of the big "free bet" portal style sites and looked at who they were mainly promoting and started out with that. This included quite a few big brands such as Ladbrokes, Winner and others that I later removed completely from my sites. I think this thread could greatly help others who are just getting started!

    Obviously, every affiliate will have hugely varying experiences with each sportsbook/casino (eg, bet365 are regularly mentioned as the best for sports conversions/revenue but one affiliate above still listed them as his/her worst) - so I guess this list isn't definitive, just what we've all come up with personally. A few programs have been mentioned more than once however.

    Here's a quick rundown of who we have all mentioned so far (with votes). I mainly promote sportsbooks only, so apologies if I've incorrectly named the casino ones mentioned (i think they are casinos anyway).

    Poor Converting/Revenue Programs by Votes:
    Ladbrokes - 3
    32Red - 3
    William Hill - 2
    Betfair - 2
    Stan James - 2
    SportingBet - 2
    Betfred - 1
    SkyBet - 1
    RevenueJet - 1
    WagerWeb - 1
    10bet- 1
    BigTimeRevenue - 1
    DeckMedia - 1
    VistaGaming - 1
    Come On - 1
    bet365 - 1
    BetOnline - 1
    888Casino - 1
    Interesting list as you have a few solid books in the list. With the likes such as bet365, 888 you may find your conversions poor as most players who will play there already have opened an account with them.
    Simon Eaton - Online marketing consultancy with 20 years experience

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  17. #32
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    Default My 2 worst

    Top 2 Worst for me of the bigger bookies are

    William Hill
    &
    Ladbrokes

    These are also programs that have migrated to new software over and over for years and both ended up today with the worst affiliate software platforms too.

    Moving software platforms also is a well known vehicle for shaving of accounts.

    They have deep pockets and therefore spend money sponsoring affiliate forums and affiliate ****-ups so they lead everyone to believe they are kosher (something else they have in common now in terms of how their affiliate programs are managed but nothing to do with being genuine and legitimate) ...if you know what I mean

    If they were not household names no-one would bother with promoting them at all. Instead they would be on an affiliate blacklist so new affiliates know to avoid them.

    Most of us were attracted this business by the promised prospect of 'LIFETIME REVENUE SHARE' promoted by gaming companies, but it seems they are only just words nowadays, that are rescinded without notice.

    The industry is ripe for a decent betting company to contract with affiliates a set revenue share percentage, decent creatives, decent promos, detailed (and transparent) reporting, timely payment, no negative rollover and most importantly of all NO CHANGES IN TERMS FOR SAY 10 YEARS

    Any such company would suddenly have a new and very large workforce promoting them.
    Last edited by sparks; 15 May 2014 at 7:12 am.

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  19. #33
    Roulette Zeitung is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocreditor View Post
    Thanks Leopold, it's always better to take a positive spin on things. You bring up an important point to consider.

    We should all keep this in mind.
    Well...
    If you look closely (from time to time it takes less than 10 seconds ), it's indeed possible to have in total a 100% negative post count.
    Admirable!

    Leopold

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  21. #34
    webanalysissolutions is offline Private Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparks View Post
    They have deep pockets and therefore spend money sponsoring affiliate forums and affiliate ****-ups so they lead everyone to believe they are kosher (something else they have in common now in terms of how their affiliate programs are managed but nothing to do with being genuine and legitimate) ...if you know what I mean
    Exactly! Surprised no one has mentioned the correlation between "poor performing" programs and the amount of suspected fraud that goes on in massaging affiliate stats. I do wonder how much money I've lost from dubious affiliate program practices over the past 10 years - could have probably paid my mortgage off! On a side note, isn't is a sign of the times when you go to affiliate conferences and one program even puts an ad in the magazine and it's headline selling point is "we don't shave affiliates". Kind of an admission that this stuff goes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparks View Post
    Most of us were attracted this business by the promised prospect of 'LIFETIME REVENUE SHARE' promoted by gaming companies, but it seems they are only just words nowadays, that are rescinded without notice.
    I'm starting to think I should report any false advertising to the Advertising Standards Authority - http://www.asa.org.uk/ I've worked for companies in other industries and we were always getting pulled up on dubious statements and it seems gaming companies are heavily scrutinised too when they put out offers etc, but the affiliate industry can market whatever they want - for example Betfair claim "lifetime revenue", yet exchange revenue share evaporates slowly over 5 years - http://affiliates.betfair.com/page.aspx?l=1&p=21

  22. #35
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    Looking into other reasons for poor performing programs though. Sometimes it's not the product that's letting you down as an affiliate, or the size of the brand, or the lack of attractive promotions that are stopping you getting sign ups. You also have to consider some of these things that are leading to you promoting a brand for months and not getting a single penny of commission:

    Cookie length - lack of conversion can often reflect short tracking cookie length. For example, Paddy Power takes 8-10x more clicks to get a sign up for us now because they operate a session cookie.

    Market Saturation
    - the market is saturated and many people have accounts with the big guys now, making it more difficult to generate new leads

    Fraud/Shaving/Skimming - just look on any affiliate forum and many of the brands mentioned above correlate strongly with the amount of discussion about fraud.

    Dubious T&Cs - if you delve into the T&Cs sometimes you'll for example find that you're only getting paid for the first 24 months of a player account, or if an account is inactive for 90 days you will lose the player. Check T&Cs with a fine tooth comb and tell advertisers their terms are not competitive

    Chargebacks/Creative Accounting/Ambiguous Terms - some companies whack you with massive chargebacks (https://www.gpwa.org/forum/activewin...ks-216126.html), or if you look at the T&Cs they have dubious methods of calculating "net revenue" that cannot be understood and are not explained. For example a lot of programs put "software charges" into the net revenue equation. What are they? Here's another example of a dubious term - When Betfred have TV ads (which is all the time!) they require your referrals to place a bet within 48 hours or you lose them! (see 6.11) http://www.betfred.com/affiliates/terms-and-conditions
    any Customer that accesses the Betfred.com Site via a Link on the Partner Site must place a qualifying bet on the Betfred.com Site within 48 hours of access via that Link in order for you to receive a share of the Net Revenue derived from that Customer’s bet.
    Tracking - Links often don't work for whatever reasons, or landing pages are moved/deleted. Some companies are worse than others for this. Sportingbet used to be terrible at deleting links from the affiliate system and unless you checked all your links every week you'd sometimes be left promoting a dead link for a long time.

    Some Companies Are Reluctant to Take Customers - You might read in a company's T&Cs that they accept players from everywhere except a short list of excluded territories. Yes, that's true, but behind all of this companies also have "risk teams" that filter out the accounts they want. So, for example, a bookie might not have Croatia on their excluded list, but when you refer players their accounts get locked under stringent fraud rules or other reasons.

    Difficulty in depositing/Fraud Checks - You might get a lot of registrations but a lot of the time players have difficulty in moving on to depositing and betting. Laws require bookies to know their customer and although from the UK it might be easy to sign up and deposit in a few minutes, if you live elsewhere in the world some bookies require you to fax scans of personal documents like passports. This puts off a lot of people. Much of the world does not work on cards too, so getting people to deposit is tough sometimes.

    Lack of cross product rev share - some compaies do not give you cross product share. So, as soon as you sign up a player they'll be trying their best to get them over to other products. Paddy Power do not pay cross product. So, if your sportsbook referral gets sold the casino via email marketing you'll get nothing from the casino revenue. Take Betfair too - they'll give you lifetime rev share on the sportsbook but only a sliding scale of rev share on the exchange. As soon as you sign up players to the sportsbook no doubt they'll get emails about how good the exchange is, and as soon as they're converted to the exchange they won't go back to the sportsbook, meaning you lose out in the long run.

  23. #36
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    It's been mentioned already, but I think it's valuable to consider market saturation. With any well known property in the geographical region you're targeting converting with them is going to be more difficult. They are well known for a reason - either positive or negative, but usually due to their own efforts to build brand within the target market - so players aren't finding something surprising and new, they're finding something they already knew about and had accepted or dismissed.

    32 Red are a prime example of this. They do deliver fantastic player experience and it's very rare for a genuine issue with them to escalate to the level of reaching any of the mediations services. However their partnership with CasinoMeister has been extremely effective at making the playing community aware of them for all the right reasons. It's an oddity to find a player who hasn't already heard of them. Other brands have achieve similar status generally not by working with affiliates but - and there are exceptions to this - by owning a well known high street brand. Where this is the case an affiliate - and importantly the affiliate program - will have to be prepared to work harder to get players through the door. If you choose a lesser known brand, and I'm just plucking figures out of my nether regions here, you could have a situation where 9 out of every ten players that visits your site has never heard of them and will consider signing up. With a bigger brand and depending on where you are it could be as low as 1 or 2 out of ten that haven't heard/don't have an account with the brand. That makes (in this example) 80-90% of your traffic unlikely/unable to convert for you, so without a really big incentive to convert the remaining 10-20%, which most big brands won't offer, it's going to be a tough gig. If you strip out that proportion of my traffic today I'd really be struggling.
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  25. #37
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    Customer Retention - I suppose another factor is once you've got the customer in the door, how good is the advertiser at keeping them. I know the brands that retain customers for us and I know the ones that are terrible at retention. Think of it another way, if you try your best to sign a customer up to Ladbrokes but average retention is only 3 months, it's likely that another affiliate will basically capture that player into another bookie who is better at retaining players. I'm actually in the process of making changes to our sites to sort of "steal" players away from the bookies I know are bad at customer service, odds value and a load of other factors that affect customer experience. If you can acquire customers to a good brand they'll stay with you for years.

    Type of Market Focus - All sportsbooks kind of look the same - they offer odds on the same markets across the same events. However some bookies, by plan or not, just lend themselves to small bets/small punters, and others lend themselves to higher rollers. Look for bookies with high limits for example. Some bookies are restricting some customers from what they see as "high risk" countries to bets of less than 10 euros at a time. When sports margins are 5% at best and you're getting a 30% cut of that, you won't make any money on small punters. Some bookies, like Betfred in our experience, do a lot of coupon type bets, which lends itself to small time punters putting on their 1 on a 15 fold accumulator. We've seen very little turnover, but on some days massive wins e.g. $30 turnover and and $1800 win. Some of the fixed odds coupons really don't seem that profitable for a bookie on some weeks. In contrast, on other bookies we can see hundreds of thousands of GBP turnover in sports bets per month, and more of a steady income from low (normal) sports betting margins. If you can earn 2% of your turnover in revenue then you're doing well i.e. 100K turnover = 2000 income. Other affiliates might be seeing higher percentages based on lower sample sizes, but from our experience over thousands of active players this is what we achieve (at best), so it must be fairly representative of the market.

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  27. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparks View Post
    The industry is ripe for a decent betting company to contract with affiliates a set revenue share percentage, decent creatives, decent promos, detailed (and transparent) reporting, timely payment, no negative rollover and most importantly of all NO CHANGES IN TERMS FOR SAY 10 YEARS
    Your certainly right. A lot of people are moving away from the bigger names. They just do not convert as well as some of the emerging brands. You should take a look over our affiliate program. We are changing systems next month, so it may be a good time to sign up.

  28. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGO_Chris View Post
    Your certainly right. A lot of people are moving away from the bigger names. They just do not convert as well as some of the emerging brands. You should take a look over our affiliate program. We are changing systems next month, so it may be a good time to sign up.
    What EXACTLY is changing?

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  30. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    What EXACTLY is changing?
    Currently we are using our own in-house software which is good, but doesn't allow us to really delve into an affiliates activity or handle sub-id tracking. These two things will be added with the new system. We are also looking at introducing mobile tracking that will be completely unique to the industry, in an effort to adapt to the increased amount of "third screen" players. I cannot go into to much detail as we are working out some of the finer points but it will hopefully compliment our already successful affiliate program.

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