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  1. #1
    -Shay- is offline Public Member
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    Thumbs down Rant about payments

    Rhetorically speaking, what is so difficult about paying on time? I really wish there was one single program I was referring to. Sadly, this is not the case.

    I do my best to deal with programs who I believe act ethically towards players in terms of how they are treated, fairness, licencing, etc.

    But seriously people, let's cut to the chase - if your terms & conditions or FAQ suggest you pay by a certain date of the month and the chosen payment method is anything other than "cheque by mail" - on time means on time.

    If my mobile phone bill is due by the 8th of the month - if I've not paid by the close of business on the 8th, I am charged a late fee. They rightfully expect "on time" payment and if payment is not made by me "on time", I am penalized.

    To them, "paid" means money received. It doesn't just mean some report showing that the money has been sent - it means money has been received by them, from me - which brings me to the heart of my rant.

    There are programs I work with that show I've been paid days ago by bank wire. Yet, the money has not hit my account. Why would this be? I can send money via wire transfer to pretty much anywhere in the world and in most cases, the money is received within 24 hours TOPS. Why is this not the case when "you" mark my money as "paid" and why am I sitting here days later seeing "paid" status, yet my bank account suggests otherwise?

    Additionally, if my "job" is to send you traffic why is it not "your" job to ensure that my players are treated fairly AND to ensure that I am paid on time? Why should it be my job to send messages wondering where the hell my money is?

    Also, there's one affiliate reporting platform who I am going to leave nameless for the moment that seems to pull this trick on me every few months. Without naming names, they seem to lose my payment information quite frequently. I've now had three separate programs using their award winning software where my payment info has simply disappeared.

    As you can surely tell, I am growing quite irritated with the "games" being played here. Industry wide, there is virtually no consequences for late paying programs and it is irritating me more and more by the minute. If anyone (webmaster, affiliate program manager, affiliate software developer, etc.) would like to chime in to offer insight as to why payments can't be made on time more often than not or why software glitches seem to lose financial information - I'm all ears.

    Beginning next month, I am leaning towards posting extremely honest feedback regarding programs who do not make it a priority to pay on time. I'll gladly remove said feedback providing the program pays what is due plus a late charge that is similar to what I'd be charged if I were late in paying my mobile bill. Maybe then, "on time" will truly mean "on time" & "paid" will truly mean "money received".

    /rant

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  3. #2
    thebookiesoffers is offline Former Member
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    Canbet have been pissing me about, Setantanet are also slow and crap now

    BetVictor, Ladbrokes, Coral and Sportingbet are amongst the best for very quick payments

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  5. #3
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    I support your rant 100%. A few months ago I was down that road. While I do believe that occasional delays are possible, reoccurring ones, each and every month, handled without care aggravate me.

    In fact I respect my nervous system so much, that I would not allow stress from some lame program that can't get their stuff together. This is the reason why I closed my WH account. I prefer giving up the players than having anger issues every single month.

    Bottom it all comes down to how much we are willing to tolerate. If affiliates are more radical and extreme, they'll think twice about delaying your payments next time. If it comes down to a few complains and a rant once on a while doubt they'd care much.

    I know everyone has different experience with different books, but we ought to make decisions based on our personal views.

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  7. #4
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    Your point is well made ... but it's not unusual.

    All areas of business need to have a process for monitoring debtors and contacting them for collection is part and parcel of ALL small businesses (unfortunately).

    I maintain a simple spreadsheet with a line for each invoice :
    - Date Due / Program / amount / Currency / date paid.

    After 30 days unpaid their name turns red and they get an email, and then a follow up, etc.

    Why do they slow pay?
    Often I find that it's simply lack of manpower. Many of these organisations are far smaller than you would like to think.

    What can you do to prevent slow pay?
    Not much.
    Cultivating a relationship with the AM helps a bit.
    Being polite BUT firm in requesting payment also helps.

    What can you do if it keeps happening ?
    In the end, payments (whether to affiliates and players) are the lifeblood of our industry. If a program cannot pay us in a timely manner - they are probably not paying players either.

    Repeated delays in our payment usually result in termination of deal by US.

    WillHill, 888.con and a couple of other programs have been dumped by us accordingly.
    We still receive their bleeting requests for reinclusion ...

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  9. #5
    -Shay- is offline Public Member
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    I took some time to digest my feelings and to think over the responses to this thread. I'm going to name drop here - not to bash but instead to further demonstrate my exact feelings and problems I have with affiliate programs in hopes of the problems being fixed industry wide.

    Regarding Coral, I have to 100% agree that they pay timely, which is very much appreciated. Class act program there.

    We have also dropped 888 and WillHill to an extent. WillHill is advertised on two pages of our site for informational purposes only. However, the informational reference still converts once in a while and to be honest, it irritates me... LOL

    888 is gone altogether, though we still push Joy of Bingo brands - which 888 own. They are currently and have been one of the sources of headaches for me. They are a very "streaky" program in terms of payments and accurate stats. They will go months paying "on time" only to follow up with months of slow-rolling. Recently, they failed to process commissions for 60+ days coupled with the excuse that they were "improving" their reporting and payment methods. Personally, I fail to see how no-paying = improvements.

    The excuse they offered reminded me of my friend's mother who once owned a local bar in her small town. Every year, she was closed for ten days in the summer. It wasn't just ANY ten days, it was smack-dab in the middle of the busiest time of year for her town. The town had a festival during one week and a conference during the second week. Before she owned said bar, this was also their busiest time of the year religiously. Her claim was that she was closed for remodeling. However, the truth was that she failed to renew her liquor license and thus was forced to be closed. She'd reopen after renewing her license and whilst the brass was polished and the floors clean and shiny, there was no real remodeling that was EVER done.

    Anyway, back on track - Joy of Bingo did make a payment late last month, which moved them from being 60+ days late to 30+ days late. Today's no payment puts them back into the 60 day category. However, this time - their new, shiny system is showing that payment was made on 9 July. Why does it take more than 24-48 hours to push money via UK to UK bank or to a UK PayPal account? Seriously, why?

    Bet365 is another program that shows "paid" days before they ship money. I've never had issues with Bet365 but really - why show paid when that payment status is in fact false? Show as pending, processing, loaded up on the carrier pigeon's back, (insert status of choice indicating "coming soon" here).

    Then there's what seems like a ton of programs (but really is three or four of them) who both use Income Access software and then proceed to blame said software for slow payments. Market Ace, Probability, and United Bingo have all blamed the Income Access software for losing our payment details which resulted in "the system" failing to pay us. All three claimed that "payment is no longer possible til next month". At least Probability and United Bingo apologized. Market Ace, however, first claimed that it was OUR fault for not providing payment details. Then, when they were shown confirmation that THEY paid us the month before, they blamed the software and cited that they were short-handed and thus payment was impossible.

    Another program showed me that it is in fact possible to push out a one-off payment via Income Access. When we receive that payment, I will name the program and give them the credit they deserve, as they took responsibility, did not pass blame, and claimed it would be handled. We are assured it was and to be honest, I believe.

    As a result, United Bingo never got the real push they were after and we're currently battling with their CEO over another issue which places that program's integrity firmly into question.

    What I am saying, I guess - is that I do understand that delays. I don't understand bull$hit excuses. Very few things put me on tilt more than when someone does not live up to the terms of an agreement and then feeds me a load of crap as if to say "I don't think you're smart enough to figure out I am lying to you". I tend to be very abrasive and direct when dealing with people, which is probably why my role is more behind the scenes than it is in dealing with program managers directly. But really people, let's get our collective acts together and just do what it says we all do on the tin.

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  11. #6
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    Bet365 is another program that shows "paid" days before they ship money. I've never had issues with Bet365 but really
    There are others that are experiencing payment issues with them, and since the issues have been ongoing for a while, and excuses keep being given but payment is never forthcoming, I am wondering what the future holds with them.

    No denying that the payments are owed, just a bunch of excuses why they haven't been recieved after a few months.

    If this is strictly an issue paying US Affiliates, then they need to get it fixed, or tell the US Affiliates what is going on so we can decide whether it's worth the hassle.

    Rick
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  12. #7
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    Weird Rick,

    I keep reading about payment problems with bet365, yet I keep getting mine at most till the 7th of each month.

  13. #8
    -Shay- is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
    There are others that are experiencing payment issues with them, and since the issues have been ongoing for a while, and excuses keep being given but payment is never forthcoming, I am wondering what the future holds with them.

    No denying that the payments are owed, just a bunch of excuses why they haven't been recieved after a few months.

    If this is strictly an issue paying US Affiliates, then they need to get it fixed, or tell the US Affiliates what is going on so we can decide whether it's worth the hassle.

    Rick
    Universal4
    In the interest of clarification and full disclosure with Bet365, in previous months we have received payments from them in the months they were due. My issue with them is that they show as "paid" on the 4th of the month and eleven days later, we've still not received the money (we are paid via wire transfer from UK bank to UK bank).

    It is still quite irritating though to see as paid, yet not have the money in the business account when it shows as paid in their system. Some have suggested asking for payment into player account and then cashing out that way, but I am not a fan of taking payment to player account.

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    -Shay- is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGooner View Post

    Why do they slow pay?
    Often I find that it's simply lack of manpower. Many of these organisations are far smaller than you would like to think.
    Ironically, Joy of Bingo's latest excuse is that they are too big of an organization, which is the cause for Joy of Bingo's delayed payment.

    "still awaiting approval im afraid - as we are such a big organisation, its is approved by 3 people and i am awaiting approval from one of them".

  15. #10
    thebookiesoffers is offline Former Member
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    I finally got my May payment from Canbet/commission king after I started going mad at them on twitter...............................but they also shut my account lol

    No word of a lie lol

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  17. #11
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    In the interest of clarification and full disclosure with Bet365

    Some others have not been paid for MONTHS and months.

    Rick
    Universal4

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  19. #12
    -Shay- is offline Public Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebookiesoffers View Post
    I finally got my May payment from Canbet/commission king after I started going mad at them on twitter...............................but they also shut my account lol

    No word of a lie lol
    Great idea. I just may take to twitter tomorrow, as my current tactics are no more effective than remaining silent.

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    I addressed the Bet365 slow payment / excuses in the linked thread. I'm quite hopeful that James will get everything sorted by tomorrow in terms of payment.

    I'm less optimistic about the misinformation and misreporting of payments being made to affiliates, but at least my gripe is aired and we have a dialogue going.

  21. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    Then there's what seems like a ton of programs (but really is three or four of them) who both use Income Access software and then proceed to blame said software for slow payments. Market Ace, Probability, and United Bingo have all blamed the Income Access software for losing our payment details which resulted in "the system" failing to pay us. All three claimed that "payment is no longer possible til next month". At least Probability and United Bingo apologized. Market Ace, however, first claimed that it was OUR fault for not providing payment details. Then, when they were shown confirmation that THEY paid us the month before, they blamed the software and cited that they were short-handed and thus payment was impossible.

    Another program showed me that it is in fact possible to push out a one-off payment via Income Access. When we receive that payment, I will name the program and give them the credit they deserve, as they took responsibility, did not pass blame, and claimed it would be handled. We are assured it was and to be honest, I believe.

    As a result, United Bingo never got the real push they were after and we're currently battling with their CEO over another issue which places that program's integrity firmly into question.
    I was kind of hoping that Income Access would have commented on this portion of my post by now.

    By the way, Gala Partners was the program that I referred to regarding "making right" in a timely manner. For some reason, our payment did not get processed along with the other commission payments. Instead of blaming us for not entering payment details (we did) or the Income Access software for deleting our payment information, our top notch affiliate manager took responsibility, apologized, and vowed to do everything he could to make right on the payment.

    The next day = payment received along with further apology.

    Surely you can guess who will get preferred consideration for future advertising opportunities where appropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Shay- View Post
    Beginning next month, I am leaning towards posting extremely honest feedback regarding programs who do not make it a priority to pay on time. I'll gladly remove said feedback providing the program pays what is due plus a late charge that is similar to what I'd be charged if I were late in paying my mobile bill. Maybe then, "on time" will truly mean "on time" & "paid" will truly mean "money received"./rant
    I encourage you to do so. We started a "blacklist" section on our forum to whistleblow on those whose standards had dropped, were unresponsive, etc. It's important for the the industry to keep up to date on which companies are living up to their promises.

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  24. #16
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    Hi,

    I thought i'd jump in here and give an operators perspective. I understand payments are important, and I know how much it frustrates you when they are late, this is in no way an excuse (In 4 years personally I've only missed payment date 2-3 times - it happens) I thought I'd let you know what happens when it comes to that time of the month for operators .

    So this is what we do (it varies from company to company):

    Check all of last months data for any discrepancies, errors, missing data etc - fix any problems
    Run payment report and check for any errors and investigate players/affiliates if something is out of the norm
    Ensure you have all correct and upto date payment details
    Make sure there is enough funds in each payment method to cover commissions
    Send commission for processing and wait until the payment team have sent everything.

    While this sounds easy, but is something goes wrong it hold the whole process up. Not to mention any problems that happen with affiliate software, people being sick, power cuts (if your in Malta! It happened once....) Depending on the size of the program and the checks you carry out, it can be quite a time consuming process. I wish it was as easy to pressing a button or posting a cheque by mail

    Payments late for months, I can't comment on, this could be a number of reasons, it's best to ask them for an honest answer.

    But like TheGooner said, most of the time it does come down to lack of man power.(when it's a few days/week late)

    The best thing you can do is to have a good relationship with your AM, add them on skype etc if you can. It's often easier to get a quick answer than via email. Not that it will get you preferential treatment, but you'll get a quick answer so your not pulling your hair out waiting for a reply.

    Hope this gave you a little more insight!
    Head of Client Services | TAG Media

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    Elaine, thank you for your insight and for taking the time to share the process with us. I was really hoping some affiliate managers would jump in here. Personally, I definitely understand that things happen and that whilst we all strive for perfect execution, the fact of the matter is that things do not always go as planned - hence sometimes there will be delays.

    My frustration lately is that more programs are late or delayed than on time in terms of getting affiliates paid to the point that this has apparently (and unfortunately) become the "new normal". Even more frustrating to me is that there's hardly ever advance notice that payments are delayed - with "payment made" status often showing in the system despite the fact that payment was not truly made. I would 100% respect a program if they were forthcoming in announcing delays in payment or even possible delays. Instead, most carry on as if all is well and we have to approach them to ask about payment status.

    Anyway, thank you very much for taking the time to shed light on the process.

    Cheers!

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    As far as the date paid being different.

    That is almost always due to the aff program using a third party payment processor to make payments.

    The aff program usually marks the date they paid the third party, hence the difference between the date shown and the date payment is really sent.

    Most aff programs do not like to differentiate between paying you and paying the third party payment processor.

    Actually most Programs don't even want to mention they use a third party payment processor.

    As far as 888... IMO they delay payments simply to make more money.
    The longer they can keep all their aff payments in their bank account the more INTEREST $ they make.. simple as that.

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    I just thought I would add here.
    I have been bitching about late payments for YEARS. There are MANY threads here and elsewhere where I complain about late payments.

    I tried bitching in the forums... didn't work.
    I tried a blacklist(I ranked #1 for [casino blacklist] for over two years), didn't work.
    These programs are almost immune to bad press, especially on industry forums.

    What I found that does work is, first telling the program you won't put up with late payments, then next time they are late... DROP THEM.
    and I mean drop them.. stop all traffic to them.

    Traffic is the ONLY language these programs understand. If you want them to pay you on time... you have to be willing to drop them in a heart beat and not look back.

    That is the only thing I've found that works in over 15 years of trying to get paid on time from these programs.
    Once you get a reputation in the business for not putting up with late payments and dropping programs that do pay late... guess what... you get paid on time, every time.

    But as long as ALL you do is complain in a forum or start another casino 'blacklist', while your still sending the offending program your traffic, your going to continue to get paid whenever the program feels like paying you and not when the money is due.

    This s a tough business, everyone plays hardball. If your playing softball in this game, your going to be everyone's bitch.
    Last edited by lots0; 18 July 2013 at 11:01 am.

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  31. #20
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    Regarding Income Access software being the cause of late payments, there are numerous Income Access powered programs that consistently pay on time, so it is not inherently the software which is at fault.

    There have been a few incidents of a bug (due to a customization on one client or another) resulting in incomplete payment information in the payment reports, thus delaying payments. This has probably happened less than 10 times in our 8 year history. Considering that we have over 200 affiliate programs, generating payments 12 times a year, this is less than 0.1% likely to be the cause of the issue.

    Payments are most often delayed by user error or problems uploading stats. To combat user error, we have numerous training resources available to our clients. To support stats upload issues, we have an extremely hard working IT team that works to get stats files uploaded fast once they are generated. So we have measures in place to make consistent on time payments possible. However there are numerous factors which can affect this, some of which are outside of our clients’ control as well (some clients have very complicated databases linking data from numerous external suppliers).

    Regarding ad-hoc payments, they are sometimes feasible and sometimes not, depending on the nature of the issue. For example, if your payment was delayed because stats have not been uploaded to the system, then making a payment is not possible because your earnings are not known. If your earnings are displaying in the system, check your payment report to see if a payment was generated for the month in question or if your earnings were rolled over. In the event of a payment having been generated, then there is no system reason why you should not be paid. If your earnings were rolled over, an ad-hoc payment could be made by applying a negative bonus to your earnings to account for the payment, but this is messy from an accounting standpoint, as these earnings will not show as having been paid. Otherwise, the payment could simply be made and removed manually from the next payment report, however, this generates risk of manual error. Generally speaking, programs that go the extra mile such as Gala should be applauded for this effort as it indeed is costly for the program in terms of time investment.

    Looking at the issue in general, I agree with Gooner’s view. Programs that pay consistently on time should be applauded as it is a complicated process and the standard in the industry is to pay net 30 or even net 60. Programs that consistently are late should be removed or given less exposure. Being late occasionally is the norm. Being late consistently shows a lack of commitment to affiliates.

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