Should Predatory Programs go to Conferences?

[mojo]

Mojo


You just wnat to rogue me and ban me from all events and you have not even met me yet.....


Will you be in London???


Shaun

Not sure what you're talking about? I just responded that is not the case, unless you are rogued somewhere?

[Shaun O'neill]

Mojo

I was joking....


Shaun

Not sure what you're talking about? I just responded that is not the case, unless you are rogued somewhere?

[mojo]

Mojo

I was joking....


Shaun

You got me! lol

Not sure about London but am going to Vegas in Nov.

[Nandakishore]

I have problems with the term 'Predatory'. According to AGD 'Predatory' means 'It is not good for affiliates'. But there is no definition of the term. AGD is obviously using the criteria:

• Have Retroactively Changed T&C’s?
• Have Negative Carryover?
• Are Casino Earnings Bundled?

to judge whether a program is good or bad for the affiliates. BUT ...

out of 8 programs classified as Predatory - Affiliates United, Commission Warehouse, Hot Pepper, Hype Partners, Partnerlogic, Playshare, Unibet and VIP Profits, ONLY Commission Warehouse has a YES to 'Have Negative Carryover?'. All other 7 pass all three criteria. So why are they predatory? I am sure AGD has some reasons for calling them predatory, but we don't those reasons. Therefore, we have no right to ban any program from any event on the basis of such unclear and unknown grounds for declaring a product predatory.

[TreasureChest]

Did any rogue casinos attend any conference?
I would hope that the rogue casinos at least bought someone a drink out of the money they stole from affiliates.

[thepokerkeep]

For the purpose of this discussion, let's look at the "rogue" programs only - that was what Mojo was originally intending us to vote on in the above poll.

I think we can all agree that the three programs on AGD's rogue list deserve to be there.

[alexpratt]

Just to clarify some points made earlier about conferences losing too much money by banning rogues...

AGD has just 3 programs rogued.
Red Hot Revenue, Gramd Prive and Villa Fortuna - Rogued!

They have 8 marked as predatory.
AU, Hot Pepper, Partner Logic, Unibet, CW, Hype, Playshre, VIP - Predatory!

There are 67 AGD approved programs and 3 awaiting evaluation.

The rogue programs listed here don't even attend our events let alone exhibit/sponsor so banning them is pretty mute. Grand Prive used to years ago and same with Red Hot Revenue, but haven't seen either in over a year.

As for predatory it is very different and we have to be careful not to mix the two - It also gets very complicated as its not always as simple as saying they are predatory so they can't come - The reason needs to be investigated and the AM/senior guys need to be consulted.

I am happy to do my best and am doing so but I also believe organisations like GPWA, PAL, AGD, CAP, APCW, PAP, etc should be leading this as they are in most instances set up as places to represent the affiliate community and allow clear lines of communication through out the market. In addition we are using sessions at our events and articles in the magazine to communicate these things and hopefully make a difference.

Its also hard for me and the company I represent to juggle this and do it effectively at the same time as running events, publishing magazines, producing intelligence reports, directories and running the corresponding websites. We are at the end of the day a very busy publishing company and I 100% realise the events depend on the affiliates support but don't have a thousand hours in the day to chase down, negotiate and keep up with t&c's.

Personally I think in most cases Rogue programs should not be allowed at a conference however from reading people's opinions in various threads it seems most people are keen for predatory programs to attend as they can then meet with these guys and hopefully make some positive changes or get a better understanding of the term.

This is certainly a hot topic and I am paying close attention to it and am already acting accordingly such as looking into having the AGD logo featured on stands that are approved by them as well as speaking to Andy about some specifics

I think an interesting perspective on terms came from Casinomeister in his most recent email - See below

Star Partner recently made some changes (corralling big winners) - 70% of the webmasters (who bothered to reply to their poll) gave them the thumbs up. But for some reason, there was a huge outcry from webmasters claiming this is a rogue outfit. "It's a retroactive change and it's eeeevil." I took a look at the change, and I saw nothing wrong with it. Star Partners went as far as stating that webmasters can choose which way they want to go, the old way or the new way. That seems like a "partnership" to me.

Retroactive changes to terms and conditions is a tricky subject, and affiliates need to understand that these are not all bad - in many cases these are good changes. Ten years ago, most of the affiliate programs were paying their affiliates 10% rev share. As time went by, these programs increased the rev share to 15%, then to 25%, sometimes up to 35%. When the aff programs made these retroactive changes, it applied to ALL players, not just the new ones. That was a true "retroactive change" - and no one complained about it (as far as I know).

If it was the other way around, I'm sure the affiliates would have freaked out in a major way.

This is a relatively new industry that is extremely dynamic. Affiliate programs and affiliates need to accept the fact that some things are difficult to foresee. Thus - it's important that both parties understand one another.

There have been a few scenarios that have riled a few webmasters. And I think it would be fair to say that some programs thought that the changes weren't all that bad - they thought they were making changes that webmasters wouldn't mind. The main point is though, before making any changes, they should have conferred with their partners - the affiliates. The crux of the matter is that there needs to be explicit "consent" from the affiliates. This is a true "partnership."

[mojo]

Alex I am always impressed at how willing you are to work with anything that you have to power to do so. I think that the key here is simplifying it for you so it doesn't distract to much from your other numerous duties. A suggestion is a conference update on programs specifically for the purpose to keep you informed, here or at AGD.

My opinion on predatory is that they should be able to 'fix' their problem before displaying. However, I bow to the majority here. There are some great ideas and thoughts from different perspectives here to work with.

This is certainly a hot topic and I am paying close attention to it and am already acting accordingly such as looking into having the AGD logo featured on stands that are approved by them as well as speaking to Andy about some specifics

I think that is an excellent compromise. I hope that along with the green checkmark there is also the red warning for predatory programs.

I think CM has the crux of the matter spot on. I don't think programs would/should have much trouble staying off the list.

The crux of the matter is that there needs to be explicit "consent" from the affiliates. This is a true "partnership."

CM Sept 7th:

Like I have explained before, making retroactive changes should not be done at the expense of their business partners - the affiliates. I think it would be fair for programs to introduce new terms as a proposal to their current affiliates, and come to a mutual agreement. Any new affiliates coming on board would have to accept whatever the program dictates, but current affiliates should be given a choice. That's my opinion on the whole subject.

Last month we queried the affiliate programs of the Accredited Casinos at Casinomeister - most have come back to us stating they would not consider ever implementing retroactive changes to their terms and conditions.

[bonustreak]

This is certainly a hot topic and I am paying close attention to it and am already acting accordingly such as looking into having the AGD logo featured on stands that are approved by them as well as speaking to Andy about some specifics

That is great!!

I also spoke to Bryan in Copenhagen and I think with his help many things will change in the future for all affiliates. I will be supporting him and this cause 100%.