Attacks on affiliate programs

[Betpartners]

I have noticed a pattern developing on the GPWA in the way some affiliates deal with affiliate programs when they have issues.

Now before i go on let me say right up front that i am not defending programs here nor am i attacking affiliates far from it, my record speaks for itself.

I started the thread about sunderlands/sunderbet/betpresto etc, i have made many many comments negative about sportsbooks, casinos etc, i even did a blog post on here questioning if stupidity was a job requirement for affiliate managers, so i can hardly be accused of being a shill for programs.

Ok thats that said,

Now i have seen threads put up attacking programs left right and centre, accusing them of scamming, cheating, lying whatever but up they go regardless and for the most part they are wrong.

I have just today read a thread were a poster with just 4 posts is hell bent on attacking a program over late payment using words like ******* and ****.

Yes i put it up in capitals to emphasize the point, this sort of thing goes on often

Now are there dodgy programs out there? of course there are, loads of them, we know them, we attack them, we force them to step up most of the time and when they don't we rogue them, blacklist them etc.

But i tell you what, the way some affiliates are acting is a disgrace, using foul language making accusations without any form of proof and just being allowed to get away with it is simply wrong.

How the hell any affiliate manager wants to come on here when they are treated in such a manner is beyond me, surely it is easy to put a point across without being abusive or rude with inflammatory headlines.

So much more is achieved without resorting to this sort of behaviour.

Now when a program is proven to be wrong, they deserve all that we can throw at them, this is our living, i am up for giving it to them big time when they do cheat etc, but before we get to that stage it is only common decency to act in a professional manner.

We should treat programs on here how we would face to face,

To do it any other way is cowardice.

I am not referring to any one affiliate, nor am i referring to any one instance, i am referring to what i see is a general sort of pattern.

Affiliates will always get far better responses and a better chance at a resolution when they do it the right way, doing it the way some affiliates are doing it is just self defeating.

I am not putting this thread up to start a war of words with anyone, i seriously do not want that, the reason for this post is to highlight what i see as a destructive pattern developing on these boards that is no good to no one.

[Chips]

Excellent post! I can understand emotions can run high when an affiliate is dealing with an issue, whatever it may be but as you said, it should be done in a professional manner.

I often wonder if the posters of the oft vulgar threads attempted to contact the program prior to posting. And coming across in that manner surely won't help any situation.

"You can catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar!"

[mojo]

Good post BP and a lot of good points.

We should treat programs on here how we would face to face,

For all we know, some of these may treat the programs the same face to face.

Joking aside, while I agree there should never be abuse, there is a fine line of free speech. The gpwa allows transparency which is a good thing. The price for that is sometimes the harm it can cause a program. Sometimes unfounded. So how do we find a solution?

Devils advocate a bit..

Some of these posts bring to light some devious secrets. Usually by that point the poster is beyond frustration and lashing out inapproprietly. But there is a legit prob that we all need to know about.

Sometimes asking 'please' results in silence. Forums have always been a tool and affs have many different styles of using that to resolve difficult situations..

Do we have posting rules?

[arkyt]

Personally, I don't believe in kissing ass at any time, let alone when its time to kick it.

Without any doubt you should be nice when first trying to discuss a situation, but when it goes on and on and on and all you get is the run around, its time to start kicking ass, not kissing it.

https://www.gpwa.org/forum/winners-180173/p4.html

[Simmo!]

Good post. I hate rudeness; there's absolutely no excuse for it. But what a lot of these types of posters - well, any posters for that matter - may forget is that a thread on a forum is not just a private conversation between two people - the whole industry (and possibly beyond) is looking on. And everyone looking on forms their own opinions about someone from these posts.

A lot of people, influential, potentially helpful, useful or otherwise, will make decisons on whether they want to work or engage with someone based on the "public" profile they put forward. Posters behaving unprofessionally or rudely are basically burning bridges they didn't even know existed.

I've been presented with some (very!) good opportunities from people who have contacted me via forums but I bet if I was rude and disrespectful those would have passed me by (at least I hope I'm not like that LOL).

So on the bright side, at least there is some poetic justice Martin

[giggles7p]

Martin,

A man of little words can change a world with a sentence.

You are a master at class, professionalism and patients. If anyone [including myself] wants to learn how to approach a bad subject, an unpopular subject or needs to stand up for thier or someone else's rights, Martin is a fantastic mentor to observe.

Much love, and no one could of said any of this better than you my freind.

Pat

[Puma]

I must say I agree with the original post very much and I too have been a pain in some affiliate program managers in the past. I don't think Ive gone as far as be out right rude by swearing etc but I do stick to my guns with affiliate programs who make no effort , time in and time out to make a difference to their program and their tracking and their speed in which they reply to emails. I guess because I have seen the best programs out there like rewards and CWC etc , who answer questions quickly, have good tracking and pay on time. Not to mention they go above and beyond to help affiliates regardless of their size in the market.

Now with that being said I myself find it pretty hard to understand why certain programs cant be like these other programs I mentioned above.

You may be right when you say our approach is wrong but if affiliates put their lives into something each month and dont get paid on time you are damn right that they come in swinging. Respect is one thing but damaging our livelihood due to stupid errors and laziness doesn't get you a polite little post. It gets you a true feeling of just how angry that affiliate is.

Destructive pattern ...maybe... but always being polite doesn't pay the bills and the last time I checked the banks that hold our mortgages didn't give a crap that I didn't get paid because of a processing error.

I will make a deal right now with all programs. Don't sell my info, pay me on time, offer me fair deals, reply to my questions within a timely manner and don't close shop after I spend weeks working on seo to send you traffic.

Then I will always treat you with respect.

[ck8795]

It was only a few months ago when a program accused a regular long time affiliate of scamming them - didn't we flip on the program and say they should back up their original post with proof first before crying wolf.

So why shouldn't affiliates here have the same guidelines and show the same respect?

I doubt f-bombs will get someone paid any faster then a public post saying so and so hasn't paid - why?

Just my two cents - but i think it has to go both ways here.

btw - Im no angel either - said a few words here and there but I have apologized to the people I've offended. Dont know what the solution would be other then to moderate threads a bit better/// but that likely wouldnt go over well either

[thepokerkeep]

I too am guilty of getting over aggressive at times. But in my own defense, I don't differentiate between affiliates and affiliate programs. When I smell a rat I speak my mind.

I do agree with Martin, we need to treat each other with some modicum of respect. We are all professionals here and we should all remember to treat others as we expect to be treated.

Even when I'm involved in a heated discussion and the other party crawls into the gutter, I try to stay on the high road and stick with the issues rather than devolve into name calling or personal attacks. I don't always succeed - but I do try! And I give my word here and now that I will try harder in the future.

Thank you Martin, for bringing up this subject. It needed to be addressed.

[matted]

I think there are some people who sign up on a forum just to complain because they feel they were cheated (some seem legitimate, others appear to be cases of affiliate abuse).

I think a lot of us get so frustrated with the way "normal" affiliates are treated that those agressions come out way too sharply. The point of a forum is to get the complaint out in the open where there is support from the affiliate community. It's so bad its hard to keep the good guys from the not-so-good sometimes. Even the some of the best known names are finding way to cut aff commissions or not pay out because they havent reached some arbitrary or excessive threshold. Undoubtedly some programs feel posting here is blackmail in a sense - but many do all kinds of backroom dealings and such too.

I think most of us webmasters are as willing to come to the support of an affiliate program as we criticize. We look at the facts provided... which is why it is very impoorant for the aff programs to actually respond publically and not just try to resolve everything through email.

[Betpartners]

Thanks to everyone that has responded, it is great to see that many agree with what i wrote, however i would like to clarify one point,

I included this sentence in my post

Now when a program is proven to be wrong, they deserve all that we can throw at them, this is our living, i am up for giving it to them big time when they do cheat etc, but before we get to that stage it is only common decency to act in a professional manner.

I am not advocating that when someone has been wronged, affiliate or program that we remain polite, we cant, not when our living is being risked.

And i think almost everyone here knows what i am referring to, we all see it a lot,

And i am no saint either, please do not think i am acting holier than thou, because i know i am not, i have a huge gob, i know that, it is just some of the recent posts with foul language and false accusations if left without anyone saying anything will then be accepted as the norm and i don't think any of us want that.

That it

[Nandakishore]

Affiliates who come out with foul language in their postings have obviously given up all hopes that there can be any remedies to their problems. Therefore, it is pointless to try to convince them that they cannot achieve their objectives like getting paid etc. by using F-words, that they should rather approach the GPWA admin or GAU who have very often helped in solving such problems.

But there is one thing we as a community can do. Whenever we find such postings with foul language we should put our foot down, make it clear that we don't want this kind of polution here.

[SlotsAff]

This is a great thread - I have been an affiliate manager for a while now and I have seen it all.

F***ing and blinding won't go far at all as respect and dignity always prevails.

If you are calm and collected, saying something will have much more of an impact than ranting.

I am a strong believer in Epictetus:

It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.

[Simmo!]

Even when programs are doing things wrong, I still don't think losing your cool is the right way to get things done. Treat people how you want to be treated is a good mantra.

[Anthony]

Issues will arise in any business. You really can't go wrong treating people the way you want to be treated. Profanities have no place in business communications, especially in a public forum.

Brilliant post Martin.

[greedygirl]

This is a great thread, which should be something of a 'must-read.'

I'd like to add one bit to this...

Please, please use care when creating the title for a new thread. There have been so many threads with titles like, 'Casino Blah Blah Cheats Affiliates' or 'Casino Yuck Yuck Scams and Lies'--so often whatever the original poster is complaining of is either a misunderstanding or a non-issue. The trouble with making these sweeping, alledging titles is that they absolutely can have a negative impact on a group...it's just not fair.

[pgaming]

Treat people how you want to be treated

I truly would like too, sounds fair and dignified. But we're in a biz where the other prevails.

Treat the program as they treat you (and why not)

And the be calm approach in turbulent seas fails to make the storm dissipate.

Oh yes we complain but tell me are we better to hold our tongue and politely and beg for what is rightly ours.

Non the less I appreciate your thread starter BP. And agree foul language should be the no fly zone.

greek39

[universal4]

Well said Martin, and also many others that have commented after....

I agree that often some get a little too aggressive or even rude in their comments, and I will often edit or move those posts which seem out of line, or will discuss the threads with Anthony, Steven or Michael when I think it is necessary to reduce unfair attacks aimed at programs OR affiliates.

At any time if anyone thinks a specific thread or poster is getting out of line or taking their frustrations too far, be sure to let myself, Anthony or Steven know so we can look into it.

Like someone said (I think it was Matt) we have often found new attacks started by new members here and often have found that they only joined so they could attack a program.

Another thing that bugs me is that many times over the years that attacks have started out based solely on assumptions and speculations.

Now there have been cases where the guesses have turned out to be true and investigations have led to finding out that a program or group has gone rogue (or deserved to be from the start) but I still think the speculation does not belong in the public forums and if affiliates want their peers and fellow affiliates to help investigate a group then it should be discussed in private where incorrect speculations will not cause public harm and reduce the risk of alienating a group wrongly.

Rick
Universal4

[Casinorep]

Well everything that needs to be said has been said on this thread. I will say this though...and this can apply to any program (whether big or small, established or new, reputable or not) is that they can always manipulate their stats if they want to. I mean yeah we can test their tracking, have others test it and so forth, or conduct all kinds of methods to gauge accuracies. But ultimately, the programs have the upper hands here.

I mean there are so many ways to shave a cat and if a program wants to screw affiliates by tweaking a couple numbers here and there from their backend, how the hell will we ever know?

[ecobika]

.....
Affiliates will always get far better responses and a better chance at a resolution when they do it the right way, doing it the way some affiliates are doing it is just self defeating.

I am not putting this thread up to start a war of words with anyone, i seriously do not want that, the reason for this post is to highlight what i see as a destructive pattern developing on these boards that is no good to no one.

I completely disagree with part 1 of the quote, sometimes it is necessary to defend your rights with the hardest possible ways, certainly, f.ck etc is not among the words to use.

Part 2 of the quote, yes, destructive pattern is no good to no one, but the coin have two sides, destructive pattern could come from the other side, which provoke the other party.

And sometimes words like f.c.ing etc is just not enough to describe certain situations. Ass-licker attitude does lead to nowhere.