In God We Trust Battle

[PokerNations]

Just saw this story about a group of non-believers fighting to keep religious references off of government buildings.

I should preface this story with the following:

1. My Mother is Jewish, my Father is Catholic
2. I was an Atheist but now consider myself Agnostic (i.e. I don't dispute the possibility of a god existing, I just don't buy into conventional scripture)

Here is the story, which I'll follow up with a statement at the end that should make some people stop and think....

Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center



Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center - Yahoo! News

WASHINGTON — A California Republican congressman wants to do a little writing on the walls of Washington's newest federal building. If Rep. Dan Lungren gets his way, Congress will spend nearly $100,000 to engrave the words "In God We Trust " and the Pledge of Allegiance in prominent spots at the Capitol Visitor Center .

Lungren's proposal drew only a whimper of opposition last week when the House of Representatives voted 410-8 to approve it. Now, however, Lungren finds himself tussling with a national atheists and agnostics group.

The Wisconsin -based Freedom From Religion Foundation Inc. sued this week to stop the engraving, accusing Lungren of trying to force his religious beliefs on as many as 15 percent of all U.S. adults. That comprises "atheists, agnostics, skeptics and freethinkers, none of whom possess a belief in a god," according to the lawsuit.

"It really is a Judeo-Christian endorsement by our government, and so Lungren is wrong," said Dan Barker of Madison, Wis. , a co-president of the foundation. "Lungren and others are pro-religious, and they want to actually use the machinery of government to promote their particular private religious views. That is unconstitutional, and that's what we're asking the court to decide."

The Senate has approved a similar plan introduced by Republican Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina . The congressional directive orders the Capitol architect to make the changes in the design of the $621 million center, which opened last December.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation , which has 13,500 members, sued in U.S. District Court in Wisconsin . It alleges that Congress is trying to make belief in God synonymous with citizenship and "discouraging nonbelief" among Americans, a contention that Lungren rejects.

Lungren said that the phrase "In God We Trust " had a long history and was consistent with the beliefs of America's founding fathers. He also said that the Declaration of Independence referred to rights given by a creator.
Lungren, a former California attorney general, said that while the proposed engravings incorporated religious references, they didn't violate the Constitution.

"What we're doing is making a specific historical reference to the beginnings of this republic," he said. "To ignore this or to forbid this statement or something like it to appear is to distort history. . . . We're not trying to change history. We're trying to enshrine history in the Capitol Visitor Center ."

Barker said history was better left to others. "It's not the job of our government and our government buildings to do that," he said. "Historians can point out that many of our founders were indeed religious. But saying 'In God We Trust' in the visitors center of the Capitol is not just some historical reference. It's actually government speaking for all of us Americans."

Barker said the foundation had been waiting for the right case to challenge "In God We Trust ." He said government actions could be challenged on state-church grounds if they had specific religious agendas. In this case, he said, backers of Lungren's plan have provided "the smoking guns" by giving specific, overt religious reasons for doing the engraving.

Barker said that atheists regarded the phrase "In God We Trust " as rude, uncivil and un-American.

"Tens of millions of really good Americans don't believe in God," he said. "In fact, there's many more nonbelievers than there are Jews, and we wouldn't think of offending Jews on our national monuments. . . . Why is it wrong to offend a Jewish minority but it's not wrong to offend those of us who serve in the military and sit on juries but we don't believe in God?"
He said no hearing had been set.

Lungren is confident that a federal judge will allow the engraving to proceed.

"I never thought I'd see the day when someone would sue to stop us putting in the United States Capitol a statement of the national motto and the Pledge of Allegiance," he said. "Suggesting that the Pledge of Allegiance and the national motto is un-American in some way — talk about turning ideas on their heads."

I'm sure there will be plenty of people who feel this is just stupid and not a big deal to have the word God in there. What about if they changed that instead to read:

In Allah We Trust

Would you have an objection then?

[AmCan]

"I never thought I'd see the day when someone would sue to stop us putting in the United States Capitol a statement of the national motto and the Pledge of Allegiance," he said. "Suggesting that the Pledge of Allegiance and the national motto is un-American in some way — talk about turning ideas on their heads."

"under god" was not part of the pledge of allegience until 1954, when the red baiters decided we better throw god into the pledge to fight godless communism.

I really enjoy it when people incorrectly use to the pledge of allegiance as a basis for endorsing US Federal, State and local governments use of religious statements and symbolism in public meetings and spaces.

[CityGuard]

I've moved this to the "Fun Diversions" section since it is not focused on the business/industry.

Because passions can be easily stirred when discussing religion, I want to also make a gentle reminder asking that everyone who participates in this thread do so in a civil and professional manner. I think the comments thus far have upheld that standard, so this is intended as a friendly thank you and reminder.

[Betpartners]

Well i am certainly not getting involved in this one but got me popcorn ready and the beer on ice

could be interesting

[PokerNations]

I enjoy a good debate, and of course promise to keep it civil.

[GamTrak]

LOL DITTO! I had my share during the last election and swore off publicly discussing stuff like this.

Well i am certainly not getting involved in this one but got me popcorn ready and the beer on ice

could be interesting

[matted]

I freely admit I'm one of "those" people who can be a bit more vocal on my thoughts on "separation of church and state."

I used to consider myself agnostic out of respect for those who do believe in god.... But, especially living in the bible belt, that respect is not returned and has turned me solidly atheist. I could go on a long diatribe about the ignorance of the few who have soured me on the many.

Honestly, the policies of our past president did not help... But that aside, I believe that government has nothing to do with god or the bible... That goes for money, public buildings, courts of law, and even marriage licenses.

Equal rights for all people.

[Jinnia]

I'll post this, then stay away from religious discussions. I'd rather be driving through Dallas during rush hour on the hottest day of summer, than discuss religion or politics.

American history demonstrates repeatedly that the nation was founded on Christian principles and its founding fathers wished to acknowledge that fact all over Washington D.C. buildings, in official documents, and historical speeches. Less than a hundred years after its Declaration of Independence, In God We Trust was proclaimed on its coins. America is a free nation, and freedom of religion is still guaranteed in the Constitution’s First Amendment.

History

[DaftDog]

Keep the masses happy.

I'm sure the majority of United States citizens are religious and therefore I see no harm in engraving "In God we trust." onto government buildings.

Non believers are generally more opened minded, liberal people, so they should put up with it, just to keep the peace. You never know, some of them may just see the "light" one day and come to appreciate the words written in stone.

[Shaun O'neill]

Either way the fact they are willing to spend $100,000 is insiane, I saw a thing on TV about Hurricane Katrina and the people of New Orleans and to me it seems they could still do with the funds.

Shaun

[Anthony]

I am one of the faithful. I will be one of the first to say it. However, my personal journey with the almighty is just that personal. I don't judge others and everyone has the freedom to choose for themselves.

As far as the engraving, It depends on the judge, not what the majority of American want. We are under the false assumption America is a democracy. It won't matter what the majority wants, it matters what a few people want.

I know all the cases where the ten commandments were on display, they had to come down. This one we will have to be a wait and see.

[GamTrak]

Okay, I changed my mind. LOL

Same here Anthony!

I am one of the faithful. I will be one of the first to say it. However, my personal journey with the almighty is just that personal. I don't judge others and everyone has the freedom to choose for themselves.

It's ironic that this weekend I was watching the History Channel and they had the story of {God vs. Satan}, which is how I believe things are and will be and it broke it down into a way that was understandable.

It's my belief that we ALL will be judged according to the [Book of Life] and then either have Eternal Life or spend Eternity With Satan.

"God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16 NIV).

[Anthony-Coral]

Right - If Robin's in I'm def getting the Popcorn!

[GamTrak]

Right - If Robin's in I'm def getting the Popcorn!

If you are cheering me on then IT's ON! Let's get ready to rumblooooooo LOL

Just kidding! I'm buried in work and really need to get to it, but I'll be back.

[PokerNations]

American history demonstrates repeatedly that the nation was founded on Christian principles and its founding fathers wished to acknowledge that fact all over Washington D.C. buildings, in official documents, and historical speeches. Less than a hundred years after its Declaration of Independence, In God We Trust was proclaimed on its coins. America is a free nation, and freedom of religion is still guaranteed in the Constitution’s First Amendment.

We aren't talking about peoples ability to practice their own religion. We're talking about our government sponsoring the Christian belief system as if it is representative of all those residing within the US.

Keep the masses happy.

I'm sure the majority of United States citizens are religious and therefore I see no harm in engraving "In God we trust." onto government buildings.

Non believers are generally more opened minded, liberal people, so they should put up with it, just to keep the peace. You never know, some of them may just see the "light" one day and come to appreciate the words written in stone.

I'm sure "the masses" all have working legs, so let's do away with handicap parking spaces while we're at it?

I still come back to my original point.......would you have an objection if the wording was "In Allah We Trust?"

Okay, I changed my mind. LOL

Same here Anthony!


It's ironic that this weekend I was watching the History Channel and they had the story of {God vs. Satan}, which is how I believe things are and will be and it broke it down into a way that was understandable.

It's my belief that we ALL will be judged according to the [Book of Life] and then either have Eternal Life or spend Eternity With Satan.

My problem with typical "book" religion is that is has consistantly been smashed to pieces by logic and reason.

Religion has always been:

1. A way to explain the unexplained
2. A way to provide a society with morals and values

If you go back in time you'll find that people thought Zeus was hurling lightning bolts down from Olympus in anger at we mortals.......because they didn't understand the science of weather.

They thought an eclipse was a miracle or message. They thought the mentally ill were infested with evil demons and spirits, etc.

Yet time and time again religion has been shown to be providing incorrect "answers" to lifes questions, and people continue to turn to it to provide answers, which just boggles my mind.

If we didn't seek to question things, to search for knowledge and truth, we'd still be calling you a witch if you could tread water (or calling you innocent if you drowned in the trial)

Don't get me wrong, I do not dispute the possibility of something greater than myself existing, such as a God, in the Universe. I just don't buy into the dogma that is commonly preached, and I certainly feel that there's an issue of Separation of Church and State that comes into play here.

Again, I'm still waiting for someone to answer my original question: What if the words were "In Allah We Trust", would you object to that, but be ok with "In God We Trust"

If so, why?

[raphnix]

We aren't talking about peoples ability to practice their own religion. We're talking about our government sponsoring the Christian belief system as if it is representative of all those residing within the US.




I'm sure "the masses" all have working legs, so let's do away with handicap parking spaces while we're at it?

I still come back to my original point.......would you have an objection if the wording was "In Allah We Trust?"



My problem with typical "book" religion is that is has consistantly been smashed to pieces by logic and reason.

Religion has always been:

1. A way to explain the unexplained
2. A way to provide a society with morals and values

If you go back in time you'll find that people thought Zeus was hurling lightning bolts down from Olympus in anger at we mortals.......because they didn't understand the science of weather.

They thought an eclipse was a miracle or message. They thought the mentally ill were infested with evil demons and spirits, etc.

Yet time and time again religion has been shown to be providing incorrect "answers" to lifes questions, and people continue to turn to it to provide answers, which just boggles my mind.

If we didn't seek to question things, to search for knowledge and truth, we'd still be calling you a witch if you could tread water (or calling you innocent if you drowned in the trial)

Don't get me wrong, I do not dispute the possibility of something greater than myself existing, such as a God, in the Universe. I just don't buy into the dogma that is commonly preached, and I certainly feel that there's an issue of Separation of Church and State that comes into play here.

Again, I'm still waiting for someone to answer my original question: What if the words were "In Allah We Trust", would you object to that, but be ok with "In God We Trust"

If so, why?

Now the show begins. I better be just watch.
This might go a very long way or perhaps not end at all.

[slotplayer]

We aren't talking about peoples ability to practice their own religion. We're talking about our government sponsoring the Christian belief system as if it is representative of all those residing within the US.




I'm sure "the masses" all have working legs, so let's do away with handicap parking spaces while we're at it?

I still come back to my original point.......would you have an objection if the wording was "In Allah We Trust?"



My problem with typical "book" religion is that is has consistantly been smashed to pieces by logic and reason.

Religion has always been:

1. A way to explain the unexplained
2. A way to provide a society with morals and values

If you go back in time you'll find that people thought Zeus was hurling lightning bolts down from Olympus in anger at we mortals.......because they didn't understand the science of weather.

They thought an eclipse was a miracle or message. They thought the mentally ill were infested with evil demons and spirits, etc.

Yet time and time again religion has been shown to be providing incorrect "answers" to lifes questions, and people continue to turn to it to provide answers, which just boggles my mind.

If we didn't seek to question things, to search for knowledge and truth, we'd still be calling you a witch if you could tread water (or calling you innocent if you drowned in the trial)

Don't get me wrong, I do not dispute the possibility of something greater than myself existing, such as a God, in the Universe. I just don't buy into the dogma that is commonly preached, and I certainly feel that there's an issue of Separation of Church and State that comes into play here.

Again, I'm still waiting for someone to answer my original question: What if the words were "In Allah We Trust", would you object to that, but be ok with "In God We Trust"

If so, why?

so you don't dispute that God exists just the accuracy of it?

Allah would be acceptable if the founding fathers (Thomas Jefferson
inparticular) used the word Allah instead of the word God.

[PokerNations]

so you don't dispute that God exists just the accuracy of it?

I believe it's possible that a god exists, that doesn't mean I'm sold one way or the other though.

Allah would be acceptable if the founding fathers (Thomas Jefferson
inparticular) used the word Allah instead of the word God.

Why must we cling to outdated things from our history? We got rid of slavery, we gave women the right to vote and work, we established child labor laws, etc.

We've gotten rid of plenty of things that don't make sense from our past. Just because the founding fathers did something hundreds of years ago doesn't make it right for today

This is a clear issue of separation of church and state, imo.

[TheGooner]

Oh ... I'd dispute the version of "god" described in mainstream religions.

A benevolent being that sits in clouds, and creates worlds, looks like humans (after all we were created in "his" image), talks to some humans (apparently), and works minor miracles for the "faithful". That takes sides in wars (ahem both sides?!) and is omnipotent and all-powerful ... and yet has not been seen for 1000 years - since we've kept a consistant string of written history?

The idea that there is a god that monitors and controls events on this tiny blue/green planet (to the point of sacrificing his(?) only son) is just very, very, very strange to me. There are thousands of galaxies, many billions of stars, and countless forms of life. The idea that this "Earth is special" is a human-centric dogma that could only survive while education and knowledge was locked within a small priestly class - and scientific thinking was suppressed.

Organised religion has simply been a way for ruling classes to exert mass control over the general population. The words of scripture are a beguiling story that has taken several thousands of years to perfect to convince beleivers that the "afterlife" will be where they get a reward for faithful and unquestioning service and obeidiance - SO DON'T UPSET THE STATUS QUO IN THIS LIFE.

Churches are full of good individuals, and groups who do a power of good in many areas of the world - but the underlying premise of christianity, judism, and muslim beliefs are incorrect - in my opinion.

I guess that there may be a supreme creator out there - whether it is a god or just a white hole - and certainly the current scientific thinking on quantum physics and string theory are so strange that it suggests that whatever process created this universe had a sense of humour ...

But given the vast size of the universe I do not think that humanity has any special relationship with a possible creator ... nor that mainstream human religions have any more truth than the myths and legends of previous (and primitive) civilisions that had pantheons of gods which are so easily dismissed today.

Bringing it all back to the question - should "In God we Trust" be enscribed on buildings ... for my money - it's a plainly futile act as he/she/it (or nothing at all) is just not watching.

--------------------------

DISCLAIMER :
This is just my opinion - apologies if it causes any offence or distress to readers - I'll delete it if it's deemed that way.

[PokerNations]

That's a lot of great points Gooner. One thing that I always was amused by was people claiming that pride is a sin.

But then they turn around and claim that:

1. God is the perfect being

2. Mankind was created in the image of God

As such, they place humanity upon a pedestal above all other forms of life, because we are supposedely crafted in the image of the perfect being. That sounds pretty prideful to me.

Likewise, I agree with your arguements. Back in medieval times, the church was very powerful, and oftentimes religious leaders were also leaders of nations.

So they give you the Protestant work ethic: Work hard in your living life, suffer now, and you will be rewarded in death with Heaven. But challenge my word, which is the word of God, and you will be punished with an eternity of damnation in the fiery pits of hell!

Just typical scare tactics used on ignorant peasants who had little hope of societal advancement, and might as well believe there's something better for them in the afterlife.

You manage to shape the direction and actions of a society via this method, and also maintain the status quo, keeping the minority with all the control in power, without anyone questioning or challenging their position.

But I digress. The main point of my original post was to try and make the faithful realize that changing the wording to a "god" they don't believe in (i.e. In Allah We Trust) would put them into the shoes of the Athiests and Agnostics who don't appreciate the In God We Trust labels.

So yeah, I'm not here to get into a huge pointless arguement with those who have faith, because you can't have much success there (lord knows I've tried! )

I was just trying to make them see the issue through someone elses eyes.