disgusted, appalled, irritated

[Chips]

After being away since last Tuesday due to a major surgical procedure, I took the time tonight to stop in and see what all the new threads, posts and happenings were from GPWA. Figuring a short 45 minutes session should get me through the process I logged in.
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The 1<SUP>st</SUP> thing that grabbed my attention was the huge posting on the CAP Circus in London, having held tickets for it since the event was open for registration, it took my immediate attention. I was really upset I was missing the event but my travel day was also the day I was scheduled to go under the knife.
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Now 17 pages of comments on all the grade school BS that went on from the “retired” Lou aka Professor, who, in his farewell to arms novel noted he was unsure if he was going to attend the event even though he already had made pans and tickets were purchased followed with the outcry of well wishers to his “Alleged Medical Condition” challenging a well respected member of the iGaming industry to step out side really blew my mind.
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I could have spent the 2 hours I feel I really wasted in this thread to be better used in catching up on other changes and some general housekeeping as I had been offline for nearly one week. I reckon it was not meant to be tonight. Just sit here eating Percocet and Valium to get through another page.
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Most all of you know me to be a GPWA supporter fro some time now and over the past 8 months I had made attempts to become more involved in the happenings at Diablo’s house of Affiliate Programs. No More though. Enough is enough. I said it before, I have read volumes of posts, watched countless versions of the dances being performed on UTube and still even after the connections are made (1+1=2) CAP has the audacity to say GPWA owes an apology?
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Pure 100% field fertilizer in my book. It is all about the money. Not about afilliates or our treatment, it is just how can CAP make more money and attempt to monopolize the affiliate market.
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A wise man once told me “Don’t **** on my boot and tell me it is raining!” Well in my opinion, my boots are plenty wet and still the “gods of affiliate programs wont admit the facts and come clean”. Not only this, the “former” DON of CAP wishes to make it an unpleasant experience to anyone who stands up and makes any claims against his shady and opaque business dealings.
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I am an affiliate by choice, I work for ME not any one else, I decide who I chose to associate with and who I wish to promote and have made far better “deals” on my own than I ever did (or will make) at CAP. In fact when several programs told me of a CAP London “deal” I told them I was not attending but I would be happy to look at the “deal they would offer me if I signed up with out being there as I was unable to attend due to health issues. Guess what folks? Yep same deal I would have got in London and saved the 2500+ in expenses. I am sure if I mailed the programs that had booths they would be happy to ship me some bling too.
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Bottom line? Bye CAP. Good luck in your shady future. One day all things have a way of repeating. What you do to others comes back 10 fold on you.
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P.S. Go ahead and add BANNED to Chips at CAP PAP and any other snake in the grass program you wish to come up with. I think my life will go on and be fine without you, just as I am sure yours will not be altered by my absence. I’ll stay here with my family at GPWA.
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And Steven, glad you are ok! Still can’t understand someone as brutal and overbearing as you could have been singled out in the 1<SUP>st</SUP> place.
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Alex, no hard feelings bud, thanks for your intervention and best to you and your biz.

[pdjoe]

Great post Chips and hats off to you!

One post like this speaks for well over 1,000 of us affiliates out there!

[mojo]

Thanks for the post Chips. The title describes how many of us feel as well.

I hope your surgery went well and recovery is speedy!

I haven't been able to read lately. It is all to upsetting to keep reading 20 page threads and spinning our wheels. I've said what I wanted to say. There are some terrific and elequent posts that are greeted with more silence. We have given CAP every opportunity to respond. Nothing. How long are we supposed to go on like this?

Now what?

Are we going to continue with these threads or are we going to do something. I feel played as an affilaite somewhat. We get all worked up and post and post until we are blue in the face and what comes of it? Nothing.

Lou is posting at cap. Cap is singing their praises on how wonderful the conference was. Listing the programs that will attend CAP over CAC. Sorry, or they will attend 'both'. I am getting ill.

Where is a Statement? An admission? An APOLOGY for putting us, the affiliates and programs, through this?

Affiliates:

What do we want to do now? Do we rogue them similar to a rotten casino? I don't know about everyone else but we are getting nowhere posting and I feel like a pawn here. The wheels are in motion and no matter what damage control anyone does, without action it is senseless. The games keep rolling on and there is no end in sight. We need to make an end. I don't want to hurt anyone. We need some answers from cap and that is NOT going to happen. But this HAS to end.

Affilates and Programs: What do we do to end this? If no one else will take action NOW then we need to.

[Chips]

Maybe it was the all the pain meds I am on that made me rant on as I did, but I am so damned sick of seeing the most popular threads here revolving around cap and the latest pile of crap turning white in the noonday sun, my days used to be divided into reading the new posts at the aff. forums and try to pick up a few hints, tips and everyday wisdom and has now consumed so much of of my time seeing what was next in the saja.

I really think since we all know deep inside that no one there is every going to take the high road and admit all the wrong doings over the past Lord only knows how long, that we once again focus our energies on doing what we are here for, that being helping each other all grow into better affiliates and show just how good we all really are deep inside.

My home is here and shall remain. I needed to reduce some of my bookmarks anyway.

Thanks for the well well wishes Mojo, every day is a challange to get out of bed (10 to 15 mins at times) and get back into my routine of days gone by. At 1st I was really upset I was missing London, but now I think the 6+ hours in the OR was a far better choice in my life.

[arkyt]

I really think since we all know deep inside that no one there is every going to take the high road and admit all the wrong doings over the past Lord only knows how long, that we once again focus our energies on doing what we are here for, that being helping each other all grow into better affiliates and show just how good we all really are deep inside.

Exactly Chips ... the major attraction at this point is what will GPWA, APCW, all the Affiliate Programs, affiliates, and others do?

Will they agree to work side-by-side with CAP as they have in the past ignoring the stack of accumulating wrong-doing, OR will they all finally draw a much warranted line in the sand and make a stand for ethics and thereby distance themselves from CAP once and for all?

The coming days and week will be very telling; much more than a week and sadly I won't expect much at all to change.

[kwblue]

The only thing affiliates can do is NOT post at CAP. Without us, they are nothing. If you continue to post there, you are essentially providing them with the very content they need to prove to Affiliate Programs their worth. The posts over there are already (probably) 75% NathanCAP and other CAP employees (Just a guess, BTW)... let that portion grow while we fade away.

I understand people wanting CAP to become a good place again.. Once again become partners with other affiliates instead of stealing their stuff and passing it off as their own.

However - look at it from the point of view of someone who HAS partnered with CAP to give them quality content. If, in the end, you might have your ideas stolen - why partner in the first place?

I think that is the question 'new partners' may want to ask themselves.

As AGD, I feel that they are not protecting affiliates by stealing from them. So - I choose (and will continue to choose) not to post at CAP. I think it's that simple.


-AGD

[mojo]

That is a good start kwblue and well said. I am considering an article to put on my sites as well. Not a blacklist but more just an article with my thoughts and recommendations and facts for affilates when choosing an affillate community. I would be unable to recommend CAP at this time.

Chips, get to bed! I feel for you after 6 hours of surgey! Take it easy.

[MichaelCorfman]

Exactly Chips ... the major attraction at this point is what will GPWA, APCW, all the Affiliate Programs, affiliates, and others do?

Will they agree to work side-by-side with CAP as they have in the past ignoring the stack of accumulating wrong-doing, OR will they all finally draw a much warranted line in the sand and make a stand for ethics and thereby distance themselves from CAP once and for all?

The coming days and week will be very telling; much more than a week and sadly I won't expect much at all to change.

Well, I think at the GPWA and the APCW we have done what we can to expose the issues that we felt needed to be out in the open, and there is little more for us to say on that front that we have not already said. It is time for affiliate programs and affiliates to factor what has been revealed into their actions and vote one way or the other with their feet.

I do know that some affiliate programs have decided they no longer wish to provide further funding to CAP. And I know that affiliate programs do care what affiliates think, and they do care where affiliates go. So what will be interesting is how the response of affiliates and affiliate programs will unfold over the coming weeks and months.

And it will be weeks and months until the picture is clear rather than just a week. Attendance at CAC Amsterdam as compared with CAP Amsterdam will be one area to watch. Another will be which CAP certified programs let their certification lapse at the end of their current quarterly term.

In terms of the GPWA and APCW, you'll see us strongly supporting the CAC Amsterdam conference and being silent with respect to any conflicting conferences. My sincere hope is that we will see a huge turnout for CAC Amsterdam. Remember, affiliates go free this year!

Michael

[AndreS]

The thing about CAC is Marc Lesnick. I would like an update on him. The reason CAP events even were able to get so big is because Marc Lesnick originally put his foot in his mouth when he bad mouthed all affiliate programs for withdrawing from his Las Vegas conference the month after the UIGEA was passed. They had every right to abandon their trips to the US and that made many affiliates lose respect for him.

Point being... Did he ever apologize for that? Did he ever make peace with the programs he ridiculed? I would love to go back to his conferences, especially the one in Amsterdam, I think it is much better setup for networking and learning real things that actually help affiliates build better sites that produce more money, but I will not go back to his conferences because of his actions in the past.

[MichaelCorfman]

The thing about CAC is Marc Lesnick. I would like an update on him. The reason CAP events even were able to get so big is because Marc Lesnick originally put his foot in his mouth when he bad mouthed all affiliate programs for withdrawing from his Las Vegas conference the month after the UIGEA was passed. They had every right to abandon their trips to the US and that made many affiliates lose respect for him.

Point being... Did he ever apologize for that? Did he ever make peace with the programs he ridiculed? I would love to go back to his conferences, especially the one in Amsterdam, I think it is much better setup for networking and learning real things that actually help affiliates build better sites that produce more money, but I will not go back to his conferences because of his actions in the past.

I'll ask Marc to come and post a response, since I think a direct response on his part is appropriate. I can say as someone who has gotten to know Marc well since that time, I believe he fully understands and respects what happened there now. The situation was very upsetting to many folks at the time, including affiliate managers who sometimes had to take direction from their uppper management team about not being at the show even though personally they felt they wanted to still come to the show.

But I think the bigger reason was that CAC historically charged a fee for affiliates to attend whereas CAP competed by making attendance free for all affiliates and by placing their events following the Clarion Gaming ICE and EiG conferences. It is true that almost all affiliates were able to get affiliate programs to pay the fee, but it was still something affiliates needed to chase down and worry about. But Marc has stepped up to the plate and changed that, so affiliates now go free to CAC Amsterdam.

Michael

[arkyt]

The thing about CAC is Marc Lesnick. I would like an update on him. The reason CAP events even were able to get so big is because Marc Lesnick originally put his foot in his mouth when he bad mouthed all affiliate programs for withdrawing from his Las Vegas conference the month after the UIGEA was passed. They had every right to abandon their trips to the US and that made many affiliates lose respect for him.

Yes, Marc did just that and a great percentage of affiliate programs in addition to affiliates were pretty ticked off about it. Not to mention his forum which aids in the selling of player databases, an issue which still exist to this day despite several claims by Marc that he would address the issue over a year ago. Personally I dont think CAC is the right "ethical" direction to go in! This industry can do better!

[pgaming]

I'll ask Marc to come and post a response, since I think a direct response on his part is appropriate.

The lesser of two evils I would certainly give a warm welcome... all considered perhaps the CAC would be a better venue.

greek39

[yorktown]

Michael asked me to respond to this thread.

The Las Vegas event you refer to was in 2006....now approaching three years ago.... As a preface, in the summer of 2006, David Carruthers (CEO of Bet On Sports) was taken into custody at a Dallas airport. It was perceived as an independent incident. 2 months later, Peter Dicks from Sportingbet was taken into custody at a New York Airport. This act caused great worry in the industry.

It occurred a week before the CAC2006 Las Vegas event. At the time, no one knew what others were doing or what to do. In the end, about 1/3 of the exhibitors canceled. 1/3 of the delegates canceled.

Some very underhanded people wanted to end the CAC conference at that time.....so they created a rumor the event would be raided. Alot of people in the industry were under alot of pressure. Just like 9/11, during times of crisis, rumors spread like wildfire and cause bewilderment, misunderstandings and mis-statements. (As an aside, senior executives at the Stardust called me....even they heard the rumor. They contacted the #2 guy at the Dept of Homeland Security and informed me that nothing was going to happen at CAC. What impressed me is that Vegas casinos have a close ear to the ground).

UIGEA (I call it the VOWEL law) was passed about a month later, after the conference.

Nevertheless, the event overcame this crux and the Amsterdam 2007 had more exhibitors and more delegates than ever before. Amsterdam 2008 was the same, even larger than 2007. Almost all were the same at previous events. Some are since out of business ( Remember 'Stinky Fish Poker' ?).

As for providing a better event, GPWA has a room at the event. arkyt and greek39, please contact Michael. He would love to have you run a session. We're open to your ideas and suggestions.

Marc Lesnick
Conference Organizer
Casino Affiliate Convention
March 30-31, 2009
Amsterdam
The Netherlands.

[arkyt]

As for providing a better event, GPWA has a room at the event. arkyt and greek39, please contact Michael. He would love to have you run a session. We're open to your ideas and suggestions.

Marc, I'm curious what your opinion is with regards to player database transactions. Further I was wondering if you could elaborate on what measures you have taken to combat the exchange of player databases on your site since the issue was brought to your attention last year?

[AndreS]

Damn man, we can't get a straight answer out of anyone in this industry. This is really disheartening. Marc, your reply did not answer any questions, rather, you defended yourself and talked up how great your Amsterdam conference is.

You say 'three years ago' as if you can't believe you have to answer these questions because they are long past. Well, they aren't long past, I remember like it was yesterday how you called all programs who bailed on you derogatory names. At the time, it came off like you would rather these people worry about attending your show, then getting arrested for entering the US! Whatever their reason, they were nervous to come to the US and you should have respected that, instead you publicly ridiculed them, and if I remember correctly you also put some kind of big banner up at the conference with insults??? Also, what about the selling of databases???

I got a letter in the real mailbox to play an online casino I never heard of before. I called the place up and asked them where they got my name, I eventually got them to admit they bought a database from another program. This is spam, this is unethical, and if your forum participated in actions like these, that is crap.

I refuse to accept 'the lesser of two evils'.

[yorktown]

arkyt: Good question. I monitor the message boards at StartCasino as often as I can. It isn't every day.

Originally I had let anyone post almost anything they want on the board, in the spirit of freedom of business and freedom of expression. Startcasino is a free site that lets entrepreneurs looking to start an online casino meet vendors, such as software, payment processing, marketing, etc. As opposed to other sites that charge to broker a deal, I made the boards free to allow the buyers and vendors meet without a middle-man.

A year or two ago, Mr. Corfman made me aware that the boards were being used for malevolent purposes and those selling player databases on Startcasino were to the harm of affiliate revenues. I investigated and found several 'databases for sale' posts on the board and removed them. It turns out that 2 or 3 people were the main culprits, with multiple posts. I went back....for years...(the board was started in 2002) and deleted all that I saw. I may have missed a few, but if you find any in a search, please let me know and hey will be deleted.

A GPWA thread on the subject originated this issue and I thank the GPWA for letting me know about it.

It took a while, but eventually these 2 or 3 guys got the picture....there is a post once in a while. Since I don't police the site every day, one gets through for a few weeks. Once I see it, I remove it. (I am open to having moderators of the forum if someone wishes to police it more regularly).

AndreS: From your post, it would appear that you have some sort of aggravated personal issue with me. I indicated what had happened 3 years ago and that the industry had moved on. If there is truly something you need to say to me, I would prefer a gentleman-to-gentleman phone call. I am at (212) 722 1744 ext 101.

[AndreS]

There is no need for a phone call. In your earlier post you explained the circumstances of the 2006 Las Vegas conference, you did not say, however, whether how you treated the affiliate programs was right or wrong, which is all I am trying to get an answer to...

http://www.onlinecasinoextra.com/casino_news_125.html

Convention Organizer of Online Casino Blames Industry

Lesnick, organizer of the fourth annual Casino Affiliate Convention has said, “The biggest threat to this industry is not the United States government. The biggest threat to this industry is the little boys who were afraid to come here today.”

Just to refresh the memory, this is an article that explains why there were cancellations.
http://www.casinogamblingweb.com/gam...nces_8535.html

You did clear up the selling databases question, imo, and I think most people will be more than pleased with your response to how you handled that, so I apologize for being harsh on that front.

[joeyl]

Sorry, but this is the wrong way around.

Marc expressed an opinion, his opinion, and it caused a stir because some were offended. It's his opinion, nothing more, rightly or wrongly. I don't think it's apology territory.

Selling databases of other peoples details i'm not happy about. I don't think that's up for question really. These databases should not be sold anywhere, but we know it goes on, let's just not have it done in the open.

An affiliate webmaster database post is still up on Startcasino. I noticed it before xmas and decided to wait to see which webmaster said anything. None have as yet.

Therefore I must presume webmasters don't mind.

[AndreS]

Well I know there was more to it than just him stating his opinion, but since I can't remember and everyone else seems to not care I will drop it. Also, I do agree, the selling of databases is much much much worse.

[TheGooner]

An affiliate webmaster database post is still up on Startcasino. I noticed it before xmas and decided to wait to see which webmaster said anything. None have as yet.

Therefore I must presume webmasters don't mind.

JoeyL, You should know better than to presume in this industry ... certainly in this case you're way off the mark for me. I'll agree that selling of database info either openly or clandestinely for any unauthorised use is wrong.

The most likely reason is that 95% of webmasters have never complained is that we've never heard of StartCasino and never visit there. I've certainly never heard the site mentioned before - except when you and Arkyt brought it up.

What is the site good for that keeps you going back and visiting it?

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Yorktown, The solution to the Las Vegas situation is simple.

Andre simply wants to hear you admit you were wrong with your outlandish statements at CAC regarding operators and affiliates who backed out of US travel.

I can understand you were tired and emotional, and fearful of your livelihood going out the window. Things get said. **** happens. I can understand that.

But ... with the benefit of hindsight I've never heard or read you admit that the display of belittling your potential customers and client base was wrong. So when I read your posts they are still coloured by your previous behaviour.

"I was Wrong." that's all. Sound it out ... W-R-O-N-G. You can say it. You can type it. You can clear the air.

It's all thats required to cover this issue.