Bin Laden is Dead

[LiveCasinoPartners]

Now that he is dead, when will the "war on terror" be declared over? Will it be downgraded to "conflict on terror"?

Also, no one has mentioned when they plan on giving Americans their hard won civil liberties back? What about the warrant free searches, wire taps, and privacy invasions? I was one of the citizens who never wanted to give those up.

[Moonlight Cat]

If I was one of the US leaders fighting against terrorism, Osama has more value alive than dead, because they can extract information from him regarding his organization. (even with torture, what the hell, he deserves to be tortured).

This is very very dangerous way for state. Torture - is one step away from Police State.

[pompeyrayuk]

I wouldnt at all be surprised if we find out in the near future that he isnt dead at all. Too many things seem a bit out of place for my liking although an expert i am not

[GamTrak]

President Obama has made the decision to NOT release any photos of him being dead. So there you have it folks!

I guess you will have to wait on a video from Osama or believe that he is dead.

Source: Huffington Post

To believe/say that Osama is not dead IMO is an insult to all those that lost loved ones and those that caught him. Let folks try to find a bit of comfort knowing that he is gone from this earth.

[Yuval]

Are there still doubts?

[graham]

Kill 1 and create 10 more. I guess they did what needed to be done, but not sure why he was killed unless he really opened fire back on them.

[Amateur]

Kill 1 and create 10 more. I guess they did what needed to be done, but not sure why he was killed unless he really opened fire back on them.

You can't possibly be that naive?

What else was to be done with him? Arrest him and bring him to trial? Not! A bullet is cheaper and more efficient for cutting through red tape.

They were following orders, as they should. Bin Laden didn't seem to have any problem with killing, did he? He understood the consequences, else why was he hiding in a fortress. Why not walk the streets and visit with neighbors? Why have 12 ft fences, with razor wire on top?

Ever see the documentary on "KIlling Pablo"? Much like that he was hunted down like the dog he was...

I can't see according any respect to this man. He was a criminal and a sociopath, nothing "idiological" about what he was doing. He stated that women should not be educated, or treated as anything more than chattel. He should have been shot in the head!

I also agree with President Obama's decision not to publish the pictures. I'm not squemish, but showing those pics would not serve any valid purpose, since the doubters won't be convinced regardless of what they see or hear.

I do agree with capital punishment, as some people are not willing to give others the same right to life they demand for themselves. Vampires in a very real sense, not sucking blood, but taking lives all the same.

[Chips]

Thought this was a good one, OBL's last Facebook post:

[Betpartners]

I am convinced that he is dead, I cannot envisage any situation that an American President would publicly say this knowing it not to be true, it would lead to impeachment and Al Quada would not hesitate to release a video of Osama Bin Laden to prove that Obama lied, one can only imagine the repercussions of that.

That said there is a sense of contradiction.

Previous American policy was very very different, lets look at it for a minute.

Saddam Hussein, who I think we can all agree is responsible for more deaths of his own people and foreigners, including Americans that Osama Bin Laden could ever have dreamed of, he was unarmed and not killed when caught, he was paraded on TV and we all know that his death was leaked.

Uday and Qusay Hussein, both killed in a firefight and their dead bodies paraded on TV for the world to see.

Abu Al Zarqawi, leader of Iraqi Al Qadea, killed and his body displayed on TV and plastered across the front page of the American press with headlines like Gotcha and smoked.

Now all those four were Muslims, they, to my knowledge, were not buried within 24 hours and even if they were, the sensibilities of the Muslim people or the idea that it would lead to retribution simply never entered the heads of the policy makers, otherwise why show the death photos, now for some reason it is apparently relevant.

Other aspects of this I also find unsettling, for starters the glorification of his death reminds me of some incidences in the Arab world when there was dancing in the streets at the deaths of American, British, Australian, Indonesian, Spanish and many other civilians from different nationalities in terrorist attacks, I found their actions very distasteful, as did many of the Western world leaders who condemned such glorification, I do not hear the same condemnation this time round.

When any nation sets themselves up as a beacon of freedom and democracy and condemns others on human rights they then have a responsibilty to actually follow through on their own high standards, when they don't they should not really complain when any future statements on such principles are made, that they are disregarded as hypocritical.

The crimes of any human being, however appalling should never lead to a shoot to kill policy, not when the rule of law is so highly regarded, the law should always be allowed to take its natural course, extra judicial killing is illegal in America, The European Union, the UN and I would not be surprised if it was illegal in Pakistan as well.

Simply ignoring this because it was Osama Bin Laden does not negate the fact that this was a killing of an unarmed man that was not given the opportunity to make his case in a court of law, however distasteful that would have been, it compromises ones morality, ethics and principles, either one is for extra judicial killings or they are not.

An event that the world has been waiting for, the capture or killing of Osama Bin Laden could easily have been a massive boost to American credibility, power and determination, but instead what we have is a situation that has more questions than answers.

For starters this thread alone shows how many do not believe that Osama Bin Laden is dead, there is disquiet over the illegal entry into a sovereign state, their are persistant questions about the method of the killing and serious reservations over the decision not to release a video or photo.

Watching the BBC News and CNN over the last few days I have heard comments from many former statesmen, military men etc both American and foreign basically saying that they felt the Americans were better than this, I am not surprised at those comments.

Like i said, I am convinced Osama is dead and believe it or not I am very glad he is finally dead but as Winston Churchill once said, law law and not war war, a view I strongly hold also and one that could have and should have applied in this case, otherwise what is the difference anymore between us and the terrorists and dictators that pollute our planet.

I am totally against state sponsored murder (execution) I find it barbaric and not foolproof and maybe that is why I hold the views I do on this event, I don't know, but what I do know is that it takes a special kind of talent to have something like this end up with so many people shaking their heads.

All that said and done I remember 9/11, 7/7 and 3/11 very vividly and I remember the effect those attacks had and I can fully understand the jubilation the death of Osama Bin Laden has caused, I also understand why there are sceptics, disbelievers and the indignant out there.

I am uncomfortable with the way this has been handled by the American authorities, I am also very uncomfortable with some of the comments from European Union leaders, The EU has very specific laws and treaties and some of the comments I have heard from the likes of British Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Nicholas Sarkozy are in direct contradiction of those said laws and treaties.

Even in death, Osama Bin Laden has managed to provoke the European Union and the USA in to smashing their own principles and ethics in to a million pieces and the worse thing about it is, that it is self inflicted.

I know the argument that Al Qaeda did not give anyone due process or the chance to defend themselves in the court of law, but that is not we are about, we set ourselves up as better than that and should act like it, we don't shoot child rapists and killers on the spot, we don't shoot serial killers and other mass murderers on the spot, some very high ranking Al Qaeda operatives have already been caught and not shot on the spot, I just don't follow the argument that Osama Bin Laden is so different that we should accept our respective governments breaking the law at will to further their own ends.

The minute it becomes acceptable for ones own government to break their own moral code and laws do not be surprised if that very same government then starts to act in that very same manner with its own citizens, but then when you have places like Guantanamo bay, Abu Gharib, bug your own people, remove certain civil liberties etc then I suppose anything is possible.

But and it is a very big but

If one of my children had been murdered in a terrorist atrocity and the terrorist responsible was shot dead, unarmed and in front of his kid, I would also be dancing in the streets and would not give a **** what anyone thought, I would not care about the law or moral ethics, you can stick that were the sun don't shine and yes that makes me a massive hypocrite, but then I am only human with normal human emotions.

[mojo]

Oh for crissake Martin, how is someone supposed to read all of that massive tome?

Let me break it down for you.

Millions of Americans watched in horror their friends, neighbors, reletives, loved ones and fellow Americans jump to their death from a burning building. The horror is forever burned into our minds.

What more do you want to know?

[pompeyrayuk]

Osama Bin Laden is actually an anagram.

LOB DA MAN IN SEA

[FictionNet]

Betpartners, that's a brilliant post. Worth reading it.

[mojo]

Michael or Anthony, City Guard, could we close this thread please?

[graham]

You can't possibly be that naive?

What else was to be done with him? Arrest him and bring him to trial? Not! A bullet is cheaper and more efficient for cutting through red tape.

I would think someone like Bin Laden would be an excellent source of intelligence. Sure he probably wouldn't talk, but why not at least try. If they are going to practice things like waterboarding with other detainees why wouldn't they do that with him to at least try to find more information? Killing him solves nothing and throwing his body in water has turned out to be more of a slap in the face of muslims and could potentially have much worse backlash. Hopefully it doesn't, but obviously its a sticky situation so there must be a reason they did that.

[wagerjunction]

At the end of the day though - we can dissect this situation as much as we want and this thread can run dozens of pages long - the point remains that what's done cannot be undone. What would be the use to try and dissect the situation now?

Personally, I feel that the so called ethics or principles do not apply for an individual such as him who cold-bloodedly caused the death of so many innocents.

[GamTrak]

Al Qaeda confirms bin Laden is dead and vows revenge (Reuters)

Reuters - Al Qaeda confirmed Osama bin Laden was dead on Friday, dispelling some of the fog around the killing of the "holy warrior," and vowed to mount more attacks on the West.

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) – Al Qaeda confirmed Osama bin Laden was dead on Friday, dispelling some of the fog around the killing of the "holy warrior," and vowed to mount more attacks on the West.

The announcement by the Islamist network, which promised to publish a taped message from bin Laden soon, appeared likely to silence doubts expressed by some that he had died at all.

In a statement online, it said bin Laden's blood "is more precious to us and to every Muslim than to be wasted in vain."

"It will remain, with permission from Allah the Almighty, a curse that hunts the Americans and their collaborators and chases them inside and outside their country."

Al Qaeda urged Pakistanis to rise up against their government to "cleanse" the country of what it called the shame brought on it by bin Laden's shooting and of the "filth of the Americans who spread corruption in it."

"Before the sheikh passed from this world and before he could share with the Islamic nation in its joys over its revolutions in the face of the oppressors, he recorded a voice recording of congratulations and advice which we will publish soon, God willing," the militant group said.

"We warn the Americans not to harm the corpse of the sheikh or expose it to any indecent treatment or to harm any members of his family, living or dead, and to deliver the corpses to their families," it added. U.S. officials say bin Laden's body has been buried at sea.

Anger and suspicion between Washington and Islamabad showed no sign of dispersing.

A U.S. drone killed 17 in northwest Pakistan, despite warnings from the Pakistani military against the mounting of attacks within its borders. Islamists in the south rallied to vow revenge for the shooting of the "martyr" bin Laden. Afghan Taliban and Islamist Indonesian youths made similar threats.

"FIVE YEARS" IN COMPOUND

One of Osama bin Laden's wives, Amal Ahmed Abdulfattah, told Pakistani interrogators the al Qaeda leader had been living for five years in the compound where he was killed by U.S. forces this week, a Pakistani security official told Reuters.

The revelation appeared sure to heighten U.S. suspicions that Pakistani authorities have been either grossly incompetent or playing a double game in the hunt for bin Laden and the two countries' supposed partnership against violent Islamism.

Pakistani security forces took between 15 and 16 people into custody from the Abbottabad compound after U.S. forces removed bin Laden's body, said the security official. Those detained included bin Laden's three wives and several children.

Surveillance of bin Laden's hideout from a CIA safe house in Abbottabad had led to his killing in the Navy SEAL operation, U.S. officials said.

The U.S. officials, quoted by the Washington Post, said the safe house had been the base for intelligence gathering that began after bin Laden's compound was discovered last August.

U.S. officials told the New York Times computer files and documents seized at his compound showed bin Laden had for years orchestrated attacks from the Pakistani town, and may have been planning a strike on U.S. railways this year.

The fact that bin Laden was found in a garrison town -- his compound was not far from a military academy -- has embarrassed Pakistan and the covert raid has angered its military.

On Thursday, the Pakistan army threatened to halt counter-terrorism cooperation with the United States if it conducted any more similar raids.

It was unclear if such attacks included drone strikes which the U.S. military regularly conducts against militants along Pakistan's border with Afghanistan.

On Friday U.S. drone aircraft fired missiles into a house in North Waziristan region on Friday, killing at least 17 suspected militants.

Pakistani security officials have charged that U.S. troops, after landing by helicopter, shot the unarmed al Qaeda leader in cold blood rather than in a firefight, as U.S. officials first suggested.

One senior Pakistani official told Reuters on Friday: "We didn't find any bullet shells inside the house. There is no doubt that no shots were fired from there."

Another security official said: "If there was exchange of fire between U.S. Navy SEALS and people inside the house then they (Americans) should prove it. They must have footage of the operation. They should release it."

In Washington, people familiar with the latest U.S. government reporting on the raid told Reuters on Thursday only one of four principal targets shot dead by U.S. commandos had been involved in hostile fire.

U.S. officials originally spoke of a 40-minute firefight. The White House has blamed the "fog of war" for the changing accounts.

U.N. human rights investigators called on the United States to disclose the full facts "to allow an assessment in terms of international human rights law standards."

"It will be particularly important to know if the planning of the mission allowed an effort to capture bin Laden," Christof Heyns and Martin Scheinin said in a joint statement.

FEW QUALMS AMONG AMERICANS

Few Americans appear to have qualms about how bin Laden was killed, and on Thursday people cheered President Barack Obama when he visited the site of New York's twin towers, leveled by al Qaeda on September 11, 2001, killing nearly 3,000 people.

But many Americans are questioning how bin Laden could live for years in a town teeming with military personnel, 50 km (30 miles) from Islamabad. Two U.S. lawmakers have complained about the billions in U.S. aid to impoverished Pakistan.

Seeking to repair ties, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in Rome on Thursday that Washington was still anxious to maintain its alliance with Islamabad.

Friction between Washington and Pakistan has focused on the role of Pakistan's top security service, the ISI or Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate. Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir denied Pakistani forces had aided al Qaeda.

Lobbyists for Pakistan in Washington have launched an intense campaign on Capitol Hill to counter accusations that Islamabad deliberately gave refuge to bin Laden.

Source Osama IS DEAD for sure

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Thank God! Now I won't have to worry about following thru on my turban eating video. lol

[Amateur]

I would think someone like Bin Laden would be an excellent source of intelligence. Sure he probably wouldn't talk, but why not at least try. If they are going to practice things like waterboarding with other detainees why wouldn't they do that with him to at least try to find more information? Killing him solves nothing and throwing his body in water has turned out to be more of a slap in the face of muslims and could potentially have much worse backlash. Hopefully it doesn't, but obviously its a sticky situation so there must be a reason they did that.

I can't see the point in taking Bin Laden prisoner. Why believe anyhthing he says, much less giving his buddies a focal point for future operations, and the trouble to counter attempts on his behalf. Better to kill him and get on with hunting down his co-conspirators. His data alone is more than worth the effort involved in the operation. Lots of data to pick through!

And guess what else??? Bin Laden's money!! Those billions are off the table now. Those on his payroll won't be getting that payday anymore. Always pisses people off when their moneytrain goes off the rails. That lack of funds will put a serious dent in ongoing operations. Those supporters won't have much cash to contribute to the cause, and those who were being paid to look the other way won't have the same incentive now. Rewards for information will have much more influence in the future. After all, the ones willing to sell their soul, won't care much where the money comes from.

Do you really think Bin Laden would make Al Qaeda the primary beneficiary in his will? That would have made him more important dead than alive for them, wouldn't it? Besides, he liked having the deep pockets that insured loyalty. Made it much more important to protect him, than to turn him in.

[TheCanadianGambler]

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, I usually hate them.

However this is way to convenient, the worlds most wanted man is killed whilst Obama has an all time low popularity and simply buried in the sea straight away? No, I smell a fish.

I think he is dead, Obama would not risk making such a huge claim if he wasn't. My bet is riding on the theory that he has been dead for a while, the news release has just been perfectly timed for political benefit.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/osama-bi...for-years.html

As I said, not one for theories usually, but it is extremely fishy.

I had the same thoughts, but you would think if it was just to get Obama re-elected, they would have announced it closer to the election (next year). I think he is dead, but I don't really believe their story. The only reason I could think of for them making up this story at this time, is to regain support for their war on terror by showing it is still successful after all these years.

There is just too much conflicting information coming from the white house about the operation. Not releasing a photo (or video would be best) with so many people wanting to see it, isn't going to help the situation.

The US gov't seems to really enjoy feeding conspiracy theories.

[eaton2003]

Although I have my doubts on what is happened I feel Bin Laden being out of the picture is a good thing for this world and doubt we will hear from him a day. However he went be it through the Navy Seals or be it through clever talking it is clear he is gone from the picture. Many innocent victims including Americans and none Americans have lost loved ones as of a direct result of his actions. If the world is a safer world because of this then that is a comforting thought. As one life or one million lives being lost is unacceptable as a result of terror.

We need to not loose focus and remember for every Bin Laden there are hundreds of wannabe's and tens of them probably have the money and power to continue a campaign of terror. Hopefully the message of Bin Laden's death will deter some of joining in these campaigns and make it harder for others to proceed.

Those lost ten years ago will never be forgotten in my eyes and if they can get some comfort from this then it is a good thing.

[Renee]

I heard on the radio that Obama will be starting to remove troops..
Gillard will be leaving them in there though.

BTW - I don't think it's fair to say we would be offending people who's relatives died in 9/11 because we don't believe that he is dead - remember nothing is impossible. I could bring up many things that have happened in OUR industry where people were saying it was true and there were non believers, later proven that it was true.

Although now that they (AQ) have pushed out a PR saying its true, I have accepted it as the truth.