Player Database Sales

[bigbcasinos]

Aaargh cr@p

Don't shoot me for thinking that the world post UIGEA needs a new outlook with a LOAD of tolerance.

These were just MY personal thoughts and I am NOT taking sides against anybody here!

I gather people were banned at CAP for speaking out. I am sorry this happened to you guys. I live here on the GPWA and on my own small forum... I visit CAP every now and then to read what is going on in the www and the casinos. I have also bought some websites from a number of CAP members, and never once have I had cause to not pay before I even received the websites. They have always honored the deals that were made.

I very rarely read further than that though......

[Caruso]

Yuh, I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

A current issue emerged, very similar to this past incident though perpetrated by someone else. The past incident was resurrected to support the contention that database sales were at least tolerated, if not encouraged, by CAP.

That is the relevance to the present.

Beyond that, people, including me, were unaware of that past issue, and felt the urge to comment on it on its own merit, irrespective of the original purpose of using it to simply reinforce an observation of the possible tolerance of player database sales by CAP. That is why this thread appeared here (I think).

As such, either as a stand alone case or as evidence of a tendency, the issue has merit.

[bigbcasinos]

Guilty as charged of not reading everything that's out there.

Sometimes I really don't want to. I simply want the industry to fight back against that which is seriously wrong. I find the fact that citizens of the US cannot spend their hard earned (post tax) dollars on a personal pleasure simply amazing. I find the fact that enforceable legislation can be enacted by means of a midnight tryst reprehensible. All of this is really HUGE. Not because it affects me incomewise as a webmaster (my main market is NOT the USA), but the sheer principle is massive.

Viewed in this light, everythings seems so unimportant until this HUGE issue is resolved.

[igami]

Selling of private player databases is a timeless issue, it will NEVER be unimportant, NEVER! It was wrong yesterday, it is wrong today, and it will be wrong tomorrow!

When just one person feels they can openly offer for sale, such an item, we have an issue. When we start to see multiple cases of the behavior we have a problem. When that problem is permitted to occur in a visible location, we have a serious problem!

The older thread was mentioned on the iGAMI site because it is relevant to the recent, yes again recent case. I can’t speak for any of the other posters but I can sincerely say for me personally this has absolutely nothing to do with revenge or jealousy and everything to do with establishing a history of incidences and simply put to distinguish between right and wrong.

Quite frankly, I personally think it is complete nonsense to suggest that obvious unethical behaviors are being reported because people are jealous. To imply that it serves absolutely no purpose other than to redirect the focus and to discredit those who have reported the wrong doing(s). Further regarding that concept, it shouldn’t matter why something is being reported – if those items which are being reported are found to be true and unethical, the report alone should have inherent merit which in no way justifies ridicule of the reporter(s).

But hey, go ahead and shovel this dirt under the rug, redirect the focus. Sadly, that has always been common place in this sector of the industry; nothing has changed in that respect and until people start “collectively” thinking and behaving in an “openly” ethical manner nothing ever will.

[pgaming]

Blocking my IP while I was thrown into the "free for all section". Don't be blind because I can view everything.

The DB issue is impotrtant and if need be I will retrieve the deleted threads. Remember "nothing can be deleted" on the net. Have fun throwing me around.

greek39

[joeyl]

Sorry Bigb, my tolerance does not stretch to the selling on of databases of players details bought from a casino.
Not from a hacker, a cracker, a spammer or Tony Blair

Yes, I have contacted my local MP to make my disgust known.

I have no one to contact about Cap, so I voted with my feet.

Frankly, I have other issues re online gaming too yes. I voice my concern ni'on daily. It's not just Lou, who I am very disappointed with in this instance.

[bigbcasinos]

I personally think it is complete nonsense to suggest that obvious unethical behaviors are being reported because people are jealous.

I think you got it wrong? I said that in MY opinion it was anger or revenge that possibly aided the direction the thread in question (regarding the recent database for sale) took.

By the way, you will note that I thought that it was best to let the matter be. I most certainly am not deleting this thread nor moderating the heck out of it.

Those are simply my beliefs. If you think gnawing the heck out of the old bones of the industry is going to help it grow into something more healthy, go for it. I only placed my thoughts on record. I won't step in to contradict you any more.

[bigbcasinos]

It's not just Lou, who I am very disappointed with in this instance.

I know you are principled. I have a few friends in common who speak highly of you. Personally I think you might need a little more flexibility but if you say your say and live by it, then that is indeed admirable.

I hope I haven't dissapointed you but here, I am not talking about a database of names for sale, I am talking about connecting a 2 year old thread with a current one and then going after the webmaster in the 2 year old thread. Not that it makes the webmaster any less accountable but it still seems a little like a witch hunt to me.

I am not condoning the sale of a full casino database at all. If this thread was only about the sale, then for sure it would be a different matter.

[joeyl]

Righteo Bigb.

It's either a moral crusade, or not.

I will write some facts as I have them, you can note the relevance or lack thereof.

# 2 years ago, Lou offered a 10 gig database of folks details on the Cap forum for sale.

# 2 weeks ago, Johnny come lately offered a 10 gig database of folks details on the Cap forum for sale.

[bigbcasinos]

And some wierdo has had my e-mail adress for ages and has mailed me regularly offering time stamped databases for sale. Some advertising agency I recall. I delete the mails immediately.

To be honest, once so many casinos pulled out of the USA, I personally wondered how soon it would be that someone started selling a database.

Did it say that the database for sale was UK based? If so that may be because the UK market is suddenly so much more important for some peoples survival that the databases value was suddenly huge. If it was US based, then it's because it was an asset that only had a value to the owner in the event of a sale. (morals not being discussed in this hypothesis)

By the way, this is simply theory but what is to stop a greedy staff member of a casino from taking a now unused US database and selling it off to the highest bidder. Pop off to Yahoo or Hotmail and get some anonymity and away you go. Money in the bank.

Now, I am not taking anyones side here at all. It's just that my scenario is also likely so why take only one view and then hammer it home like it was pure fact?

[joeyl]

Hammer what view home? You are having a dig at me for what? It's the first time I made the comparison between 2 possibly relevant facts as I have them. Why?.. You mentioned a witch-hunt on a 2 year old issue that iyo has no relevancy today, while stating the fact you are not up to speed. How can you possibly know what's what, if you admit you don't know what's up anyhow? Accuse me of whatever, i'm easy.

You can decide the relevancy or lack therof going forward for yourself.

In 22 months time, the UIGEA will be relevant for you if nothing changes I suspect.

I expect database sales, spam, spyware, theft of players winnings, bonus abuse accusations and so on will still be relevant enough for me to comment upon in 22 months time too.

I guess my kind makes for a difficult life. Imagine a mere unit like me having the gaul to stand up and speak out of turn. Whatever next.

What a UK player saying don't sell on a UK players database for 2 bob a pop is on is anyones guess.

[bigbcasinos]

Not having a dig at you personally. There are many posters here and all had something to say. This is in addition to the 11 private mails I have received as well.

I am hardly going to change your minds now am I? Your minds are all made up and you're all totally convinced you're doing things the right way.

My opinion: CLEAR AND CONCISE

• I am not a friend of Lou's nor a defender for that matter. How can I defend his morals or principles if I don't know him? I am looking at this simply based on what I see
• I have in fact read the thread where this matter was brought up
• It is still my opinion that a current issue is being leveraged to attack Lou (who didn't appear to be the one who offered for sale the database in the recent thread)
• It is my opinion that those who are doing the accusing of Lou are doing so for personal reasons (things that have happened between them and Lou in the past). I am not saying they don't have a reason to be angry (I don't know the reasons) but I still believe that this is a somewhat unrelated matter that happens to be really handy in the urge to get even.

If I am all misguided so be it. I am not going to read this thread again. I can only get into hot water by replying again and again and it seems my politics isn't all that hot here.

If you persist in going after Lou, it won't be me stopping you. I simply said that I thought you should let things be. It's an old matter and the past is the past. If you don't agree, no problem.

[igami]

[*]It is my opinion that those who are doing the accusing of Lou are doing so for personal reasons ...

If you persist in going after Lou ...

This is not about going after any particular person, it's about the sale of player databases - PERIOD! If I were to discover that my my own mother had been directly, or indirectly involved with similar transactions I would go after her with the same goal(s) in mind.

The fact that the direct involvement was 2 years ago wouldn't matter if recent indirect involvement was identified it would establish a history of unacceptable behavior which would all need to be taken into consideration.

From the threatening emails I have received I have no doubt that this individual is blaming this (assumed personal attack) on myself and iGAMI instead of placing the blame squarely on their own actions. That's a sad state of affairs that speaks volumes as to the true character of this particular individual!

I won't be posting in this thread any longer either - As assistant manager of the GPWA, I thank you for communicating your viewpoints ... it has indeed been very, very educational.

[joeyl]

If you won't be reading the thread again BigB, then you won't be reading the thread again BigB.

"Going after Lou" has never been a pastime of mine. Maybe others are being opportunist for previous ire, maybe not. Very arguably irrelevant conjecture.

More pertinent BigB, is did Lou buy the database, did Lou offer to sell the database. Is Lou in the market for buying more databases, and/or selling them on.

Even more pertinent BigB, for you, imo, is are you sending players via your portals to the very same casino(s) that sold the/some database(s) on?

As a responsible webber, maybe you should not be saying let bygones be bygones when you have a big dog in the hunt, ie your players privacy. Something i'm sure you take very seriously indeed.

[pgaming]

I think this particular thread has been explored fully. Let’s try and avoid the flame wars which will follow. The GPWA was kind enough to provide us this opportunity to explore this issue to the fullest. The thoughts and comments are recorded. We can all walk away being a little wiser.

BTW: I personally do not like this at all. The selling of DB should never happen, players first always. The world is not perfect but fate will deal this hand. For myself morality does and always will take prescedent over $. I thank everyone who made this thread possible.



Greek39

[bb1web]

Hi all,

before we left this alone ...... I just wanted to add that I know personally ..... I've made choices that later I thought were bad and tried to make up for ....

its tough to be perfect. (probably tougher for some . ... me I'm thinking of .. than others).

I think what is important is trying to do what's right in the end.

I've had friends who owed me money and disappeared. If they showed up later to pay me ... all was forgiven even though I may not have chosen to trust them to loan money to again.

like I said ... its damn tough to be perfect. It is however easy to expect that from others ....especially those you may hold to a higher standard than the average person.

I don't know whether Lou was guilty of this or not. I don't care. I do know when considering his postition ...... (and this after at first .. when I first knew him ... not giving him this consideration because I held him to higher standards) ..... that he tries damn hard to live up to the standards he asks of others and still do the one thing any family member who supports that family .... will do ...... and that's to support them in the fashion to which they've become accustomed.

as I said .... I don't know if he's wrong or right on this one. I just wanted everyone to put themselves in his position for a minute and consider what they'd do if their family's situation was a consideration for their motives ..... and with that in mind .... that maybe they too ...... would make choices which later they might have regretted?

I for one .. as much integrity as I try to hold myself ..... cannot play judge in this situation and cry guilty.

I do know that I agree with Mr B .... that its an old subject at this point ... that its pretty apparent that whether Lou did/did not take this approach .... that it IS apparent that he has not pursued it further .....

So unless you're above making a bad judgement call for the sake of your loved ones ...... with consideration that IF this bad judgement was made ..... that it was later not followed up on ......

Then yes .... lets please move forward and for those still concerned (and I'm not saying there's not reason to NOT be concerned) .... but as I'm sure you'll keep an eye on such situations as you have admirably done this time ....


lets move on and show some understanding.

my 2 cents.

[joeyl]

Fingers crossed you're not sending your customers onto a netwide spamming, database selling, rogue casino there our Steve.

You rightfully stood against Ecogra for doing nothing re 888 over webmaster issues

When it comes to the player being sold down the river and spammed to high heaven, "let's move on".

I am understanding all too well old bean.

[MichaelCorfman]

Well,

After reviewing this thread, and private messages to me from both Dominique and Lou, I think I can say with complete certainty that only a complete and total fool would try to sell a database of players on either this site or CAP.

When someone recently tried at CAP, it caused a rampage that spread over to other forums including this thread on at the GPWA. As Dominique told me, in her role as a moderator on the CAP forum:

I don't allow selling of databases ... I delete all contact info from posts that sell lists, and the writers get attacked everytime by other CAP posters."

I know Dominique well enough to know she means what she says here. I think her biggest regret is that she did not see the post on the CAP site trying to sell a player database sooner so the contact information could have been removed more quickly.

In Lou's case there seems to be divergent views about exactly what happened on a long-ago deleted thread and what it meant. This is what Lou told me:

I am not in the business of selling databases nor have I ever been. You frequent CAP enough to know we have ALWAYS advocated responsible marketing practices by affiliates. We have come out on numerous occasions as being clearly against SPAM, Scumware and Blackhat practices. I think everyone knows that. The post that allegedly took place was from two years ago. I did NOT make that post. It's either a total fabrication or it's a post made by a person with admin access we had a problem with several years ago and let go.

Now we can debate the past here, but what is important from my perspective is the present. Lou is clearly opposed to unethical marketing practices. You are simply not going to see him supporting the selling databases of players by anyone on the CAP site. I support Lou in this position.

The bottom line is that the gambling portal webmaster community has no tolerance for selling player databases in the sort of fashion that has been discussed in this forum. Period. End of story.

And I think we can all agree it is a good thing that there is unanimity on that front.

Michael

[joeyl]

I think the evidence clearly shows the post existed. It was copied in text and screenshot, plus commented upon by various folk. Including Domique. Squash the conspiracy talk about it being a fabrication. It is silly.

What is left is a previous person with admin rights, had it in for Lou and posted under Lou's handle and/or account, plus the post remained up for atleast 19 days until called upon.

Is that even possible to do with the software?

Can one spoof join date and post count? Or post under anothers account without it being tracable and Lou calling it on the nose.

[Caruso]

I think I can say with complete certainty that only a complete and total fool would try to sell a database of players on either this site or CAP.

FWIW, just to clear up what appears to be a little confusion here: the original database sale thread certainly existed, posted by Fabiano. Take a look at the screenshot in my article, a link to which was given in the post that started this particular thread. Of that much there is no question.

Posted 03/03/2003 by "Professor":

"Guys I am selling my UK Player databases as my mailing solution provider wants $10k a month to continue to host my lists. I have over 100,000 UK players that I purchased from a casino. Please PM or email if you are interested in the lists."