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  1. #141
    Spearmaster is offline In Memoriam, 1964-2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamblingGuru View Post
    I believe he is a stand up guy with integrity but I still defer back to my post here that no one yet has bothered to tackle or comment on...

    https://www.gpwa.org/forum/steven-as...tml#post526701
    Sh*t happens. I don't think there is any way that Alex could have foreseen such a situation - he's already taken the blame and has already addressed the issue. Do you train all your staff on what to do when a situation like this arises?

    I have staff too, and have worked in large companies managing people - and by default the staff are trained to refer to upper management when they encounter a situation which they are not able to handle. We don't teach staff to react to every possible situation because it is simply impossible to even predict most of the situations. And in this case his staff reacted to what appeared to be an "order" from Lou to have Steven ejected, as opposed to a "request" by Lou to have Steven ejected.

    Had it been a request, there's a good chance that the staff member would have gone to ask Alex what to do. But if it appeared to be an order - you have to make a split-second decision, and in this case the decision was not the right one.

    Rather than focusing on what Alex purportedly did right or wrong - we should focus on why the issue arose, and what can be done to resolve the situation, rather than trying to pin Alex to the wall for something he had no immediate (from a time perspective) control over.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexpratt View Post
    I have hopefully explained the situation so I won't be posting in here anymore as I am keen to move on and build on the positive relationship we have with GPWA members and staff going forward - I have said sorry to Steven, Lou has said sorry to Steven, and my member of staff has said sorry to Steven - It was a mistake which was rectified almost straight away and we are genuinely sorry - We are also helping Steven deal with the way the security people behaved in every way possible


    Regarding the guys on the doors on level 1 and level 3 - They were specifically told to be strict because in the past many operators were "sneaking" in free of charge which meant our costs were going up and revenue going down which ultimately would mean we wouldn't be able to let affiliates in free anymore which has and always will be one of our trademarks. I am sorry if they came across intimidating and I will certainly ensure they smile and are a little gentler next time - This kind of feedback is really useful and I assure you I will always act on any suggestions to better our events going forward.
    With regards to first paragraph Alex, thank you. It is good to see that bridges are attempted to be built and definately good that apologies and support are being offered. It would be nice if everybody could get on, but it seems that this will not be the case! i for one hope that all can be sorted in the long run and that we can all live in harmony.

    Reference the second paragraph, i never thought of it in that way and can understand that now. I would suggest more amiable looking guys or even ladies to do this job and the heavys in reserve in case of any resistance.
    Paul

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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caruso View Post
    Chalkie,

    It's about accountability. The security staff are accountable. Whatever load of bollocks Fabiano MAY have told them, the buck stops with the security staff. Did they ask questions? Make any effort to check anything that Fabiano may have told them?

    Doesn't look like it to me.

    Lou behaved like a dick, but the security staff were not in his employ and they aren't answerable to him. The hotel manager is accountable here. If he DID authorise it, as you suggest he may have, then again, it's his neck on the line for a bogus expulsion. If the goons on the door acted off their own bat, then THEY are accountable.
    What you say is correct for the security staff being accountable, however, in the height of a situation you sometimes cannot stop to discuss the matter. That is the nature of some such an event. Asking questions is not an issue.

    If the hotel manager did authorise it then that is his perogotive! It is not bogus, it is his hotel to invite in or out of!

    If the security were heavy handed then they are accountable, whatever the case. They have to be licenced and will lose their licence if wrong doings should be proven.

    I am making a point on the facts and not saying that the expulsions were good! Blooming stupid move on Lous part without a doubt and most certainly taken him down a few pegs in many peoples views.

    I can forward the details of the security guards licencing departments if required btw.
    Paul

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  6. #144
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    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Spearmaster View Post
    Sh*t happens. I don't think there is any way that Alex could have foreseen such a situation - he's already taken the blame and has already addressed the issue. Do you train all your staff on what to do when a situation like this arises?
    Absolutely, their protocol would have been to either two-way me, call me, or as a last resort find me or have someone else find me before they were allowed to act on a request or order of this magnitude. My staff member would have not been given or assumed to have had this type of authority in the first place to have made a decision on an issue as serious as this one with the ramifications that could have potentially resulted.

    No one can foresee all the various situations and contentions that can or could possibly happen at an event of this size but through proper protocols being in place this situation could have been avoided.

    I have staff too, and have worked in large companies managing people - and by default the staff are trained to refer to upper management when they encounter a situation which they are not able to handle. We don't teach staff to react to every possible situation because it is simply impossible to even predict most of the situations. And in this case his staff reacted to what appeared to be an "order" from Lou to have Steven ejected, as opposed to a "request" by Lou to have Steven ejected.
    Order or Request is neither relevent here since the staff member worked and was employed by Alex, not Lou. It is clear that the staff member here acted on their own accord without double checking with Alex to see how the situation should be handled. Had the staff member have known beforehand what the protocol is for a request or order from someone that they are not directly employed by...well I think you can get my point here

    Had it been a request, there's a good chance that the staff member would have gone to ask Alex what to do. But if it appeared to be an order - you have to make a split-second decision, and in this case the decision was not the right one.

    Rather than focusing on what Alex purportedly did right or wrong - we should focus on why the issue arose, and what can be done to resolve the situation, rather than trying to pin Alex to the wall for something he had no immediate (from a time perspective) control over.
    Not focusing or trying to pin Alex to the wall about anything, rather, I am merely pointing out a solution to an episode that can be avoided in the future at one of these events through proper protocol training of ones staff members.
    Last edited by TheGamblingGuru; 2 February 2009 at 11:00 am.

  7. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamblingGuru View Post
    Order or Request is neither relevent here since the staff member worked and was employed by Alex, not Lou. It is clear that the staff member here acted on their own accord without double checking with Alex to see how the situation should be handled. Had the staff member have known beforehand what the protocol is for a request or order from someone that they are not directly employed by...well I think you can get my point here.
    Lou is, after all, one of the founders of CAP - the staff member made the mistake, not Alex. There is a big difference between order and request - and I'm sure if Alex had been nearby, the staff member would probably have asked. Do note that Alex did not hear about this for 10 minutes - thus it stands to reason that he wasn't nearby.

    As I said, sh*t happens.

  8. #146
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    Alex, your post was lovely and I have a renewed respect for you.
    Janet

  9. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Integrity View Post
    This is in no way a defense of what happened... it was appalling and unacceptable... but we need to keep blame on the one individual who is actually responsible.
    AGREED - this "particular situation" was caused directly by Lou and he should receive most of the blame, BUT was it not in part the responsibility of the event coordinator(s) to be aware of what was going on prior to the conference and to consider the ramifications of what could happen? It wasn't exactly a secret what was going on; thus to claim the event cooridnator had no responsibility at all is necessarily inaccurate! If they never took anything into consideration they have to share some of the fault!

    Further, IMO it would have been his (and others) responsibility to be knowledgeable of CAP & Lou prior to getting involved with CAP from the very beginning. It's no secret that CAP has been riding the fence for years - Alex either didnt know about CAP's history or he didnt care about it - either way that was his responsibility to know the beast he was dealing with prior to entering into a relationship with him.

    Based on history you can expect that shortly everything will be back to the status quo! CAP will continue to feast on the affiliate community and those who also have horses in the race will continue to ignore it. A great big happy family once again - years of wrong-doing excused for the betterment NOT of the community as a whole, but of those communities directly involved in the back-scratching relationship.

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  11. #148
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    Just received this on google alerts...

    CAP Online Gambling Affiliate Show Seen as Disaster...gambling911


    http://www.gambling911.com/gambling-...er-020109.html

  12. #149
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    I agree it should never have come down to there being a need for such a heavy hand.

    Its not going to be the end of the world if you have to wait a few extra minutes for the real police to arrive to remove anybody who isn't willing to leave when they have been asked in a civil manner.

    that's #1 for me.

    so there shouldn't have been such a need for an extreme approach to security in the first place. This isn't nuke-science and many ... incuding myself .. I'm sure lose a lot more money every day by having up old links that don't work etc ... than would be lost due to the extra time it takes to get someone out of the convention that won't leave on their own accord ... by using the real police.

    in other words a small framed team of females would and should have been plenty as security. They get somebody that doesn't want to cooperate then they go get the heavy hands.

    It sounds like a very unfriendly atmosphere to me where i would not have been comfortable ... and i don't care if they were there to supposedly protect me ... or someone else.

    It truly sounds like a military operation more than a gambling convention.

    All that said Caruso is absolutely correct in that the bottom line falls to the hotel because in the end they own the place and have last say.

    It is disgusting that every paying customer is not given the same respect and privledge as is due the next one ... unless and until prior notice is given that they will have what would be normally an extended courtesy such as the right to walk thru the lobby without fear of being hassled: taken away.
    Almost Here! How would you like to be able to get not just one sign up from your player, or even a couple, but every single casino they join from here on? I've a plan that can make that happen and it will likely also tell you every time the player is active within the casino.

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  13. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppw View Post
    Just received this on google alerts...

    CAP Online Gambling Affiliate Show Seen as Disaster...gambling911


    http://www.gambling911.com/gambling-...er-020109.html
    Gambling 911's articles are very amusing (I love some of the pictures they have used recently), although not something you can take too seriously LOL. Altercation aside, it was actually another fantastic event from what I've been told. In fact, if anything, it may have been the turning point in this whole sorry affair and put everyone back on the right path. Quite the opposite of a disaster in fact - for anyone that cares about the industry as a whole that is.

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  15. #151
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    Hi Simmo,

    do you know if any talks took place with Grand Prive? Lou was suppose to talk to them (last i heard) in London. Now with all that has happened and his announcing retirement from the forum ... I was just wondering if he ever made any connection with them?
    Almost Here! How would you like to be able to get not just one sign up from your player, or even a couple, but every single casino they join from here on? I've a plan that can make that happen and it will likely also tell you every time the player is active within the casino.

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  16. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by bb1web View Post
    Hi Simmo,

    do you know if any talks took place with Grand Prive?
    I'm not sure about CAP talking to them, but I do know some other influential people tried but without much success from what I understand!

  17. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by bb1web View Post
    Hi Simmo,

    do you know if any talks took place with Grand Prive? Lou was suppose to talk to them (last i heard) in London. Now with all that has happened and his announcing retirement from the forum ... I was just wondering if he ever made any connection with them?
    Well Lou who made his big 'Drama Queen' exit last week actually posted about Grand Prive on CAP last night which he then edited out. However I have seen that it was copied on to other forums before he remembered that he had left CAP - Basically Grand Prive did not turn up but offered to meet them in South Africa. So looks like the affiliate issues at Grand Prive are not going to get sorted in any while soon.

    Incidentally wasn't Lou and Warren's lack of involvement in the day to day running of the CAP Message Board, one of the stipulations Dom made, when agreeing to steer the CAP Forum forward?

    Whilst I am sure the CAP Euro conference was successful even taking into account the altercation that took place on the opening day, I do have to disagree with you Simmo about the long term future.

    I do not see it as a turning point. Not whilst the management of CAP are trying to drive the CAC out of business, by hosting their Spring Break the week before CAC Amsterdam - Followed by hosting their own conference at the end of April in Amsterdam.

    Their treatment of AGD is well documented as is the furore over Casino City's acquisition of the APCW.

    Add to the mix the whole Card Spike issue plus their alleged involvement in Absolute Slots - Cap really from where I am sitting does not at this moment in time look like an organisation that has the interests of their members first and foremost.
    Exit stage left

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  19. #154
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    I'm tired of this war. I don't want to add any comments. But just want to say, Steven, I hope you are ok, and I'm with you.

  20. #155
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    Lou and Grand Prive... I am sure people of that kind will get along very well, if they ever happen to meet again.

    Why does ecogra actually not get involved in the Grand Prive mess? This place still seems to be "approved" by them.

  21. #156
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    Just read another good article about CAP, which points out that the CAP awards are tainted. Not that they are fraudulent results, but since we cannot trust CAP at all, there is a serious doubt about the validity of the CAP awards (the results, the nominations, etc).

    See, this whole big mess is much bigger than just a scuffle at the event and the Cardspike and Absolute Slots issue. Once trust has been lost it is nearly impossible to gain back as every move will be met with skepticism.

    Imagine, for instance, that Grande Prive came back, apologized, gave everyone what they ask for, then said, we are on the up and up, please forgive us and let us move on... would you trust them???

    Also, since I don't trust CAP anymore, I don't trust anyone who associates with CAP. That is why CAP is done, imo, or at least, should be done. Also, they started the CAP auditing of casinos, well how do we trust the validity of their audits?

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  23. #157
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    Hi everyone...

    Good to be home, but I'm heading straight down to Seattle for my mothers surgery. I will be back around sometime tonight or tomorrow.



    Quote Originally Posted by arkyt View Post
    ...was it not in part the responsibility of the event coordinator(s) to be aware of what was going on prior to the conference and to consider the ramifications of what could happen? If they never took anything into consideration they have to share some of the fault!

    I see where you're going, but I still respectfully must dissagree. If it's true that Alex is partly responsible for not taking the possibility of violence into consideration, then I guess Michael is responsible for that as well.

    And if Michael and Alex share blame, then I guess I too would have to share the blame that Lou gets for wanting to fist fight me. After all, I should have taken into consideration that something like that could happen.

    In reality, Alex and Michael could have not seen this coming any more than I could have anticipated Lou throwing down the gaultlet in front of 300 people. At the time, it was just too rediculous to think it was a realistic possibility.

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  25. #158
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    In all seriousness, who would have expected this? Up until now all CAC and CAP conferences have been conducted with the highest of standards and everybody has gotten along while in attendance, regardless of how they got alone 'online'.

    While I did feel apprehensive when I learned that Michael was planning to attend the CAP event, I don't blame anybody for not anticipating how events unfolded.

    On a more positive note, I hear there were some great seminars at the convention, and I have ordered a book, Landing Page Optimization, written by Tim Ash, one of the speakers. A conference attendee recommended it to me.
    Janet

  26. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Integrity View Post
    I see where you're going, but I still respectfully must dissagree. If it's true that Alex is partly responsible for not taking the possibility of violence into consideration, then I guess Michael is responsible for that as well.

    And if Michael and Alex share blame, then I guess I too would have to share the blame
    No one should / could have expected that there would be challange to a duel etc (unless it was all orchestrated), BUT with all due respect each and everyone of those individuals who were involved with any "conflicts" should have considered what could happen if they were to show up.

    Further, the event coordinator should have known about the potential for event disruption based on what had transpired days, weeks preceding the event.

    I have a really hard time thinking that you and others didn't for at least a few seconds consider what might happen if you showed up at that event. Surely you had to consider that you might not be welcomed with open arms. Didn't you?

    Sure, I will agree you can't anticipate the exact details of what might happen, BUT you certainly can anticipate some level of discord and act ahead of time to prevent any unwanted scenarios that might arise.

    Sorry, but IMO, each and everyone of you should have anticipated ahead of time, some level of discord - if you didn't consider anything at all, well then .... I wont go into that - at least not yet.
    Last edited by arkyt; 3 February 2009 at 2:08 pm.

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  28. #160
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    Not many would have expected Ecogra to accept Grand Prive closing the aff accounts on most webmasters as responsible operator behaviour either, but they have.

    Grand Prive can also remain sealed by the players friend, while opening a sister casino that states all players must deposit atleast $80 per month and play it through 20X on slots, or they won't get paid if you win something playing at a later date, or on another game or whatever.

    I am not the least bit surprised. This is what happens when you allow these silly self certifying operations to exist i'm afraid.

    If GPWA/APCW or anyone thought for a moment they'd be welcome at a Cap event, arms open and such, you're mad as march hares.

    It's about time some of you bighitters started to think laterally a bit.
    Last edited by joeyl; 3 February 2009 at 3:28 pm.

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