GP & eCOGRA...BS

[jarvi]

Whilst Microgaming might know the full numbers, are they prevented from disclosing them to a third party like ECOGRA, even if that's not exactly an arms length relationship? If I was a licensee I would have a big problem with the software supplier handing out the information to other parties unless I had instructed them.

So it then comes back to Grand Prive having to authorise the release of information and it's pretty obvious that won't happen.

[nitro]

Microgaming and eCogra need to cut their ties with Grand Prive and acknowledge they are dealing with a dishonest organization.

And when they do it then you'll lose the ability to effectively apply any pressure because GP isn't going to pay anyway so making sure that the opposite happens would be the right move...

[TheCPA]

When a noteable group breaks agreements with any faction of the Industry, then I feel it's everyone's business from the Players to the software providers, and even the other operators using the same software.

Frankly, it's a bit surprising to me that there was never an outcry from the other operators using MGS.

When a Software provider comes under scrutinty, fire, and negative Publicity, it certainly has the potential to hurt the honest operators business by virtue of the negative P.R. against the software provider.
Not to even mention, it allows Grand Prive to take at least SOME players off the field cheaper than their competition.
Hopefully not for long, but still not fair to the others, IMO.

If I owned an MGS unit, I'd be pissed off and demanding MGS do whatever it takes to rectify the situation in order to protect the brand name, and also to rid themselves of the offending group.
Naturally, Ecogra needs to do the same thing, as I mentioned earlier.

This is a no brainer for Ecogra.
It's probably a bit more complicated for MGS, but I'm sure they could rectify things if they wanted to. JMO.

[Caruso]

Actually, after viewing archived threads at CAP, it becomes clear that Microgaming is not just an innocent bystander.

Referspot had it's own stats system, and when Grand Prive decided to switch to a new affiliate system, it chose Microgaming as the provider.

It becomes clear from posts by the then acting aff manager for Grand Prive that Microgaming handled the integration. Hence, Microgaming is completely aware of the size of the database and will be able to tell eCOGRA exactly how much and perhaps what is missing.

It thus appears that Microgaming is at least a compliant party and not just an onlooker. Microgaming is perfectly able to act in favor of ethical treatment of affiliates in this case.

IMO the ball is in Microgaming's court now.

If Microgaming knows, eCOGRA knows.

[arkyt]

If Microgaming knows, eCOGRA knows.

EXACTLY! And thus eCOGRA eg Microgaming spit in the eyes of affiliates when they pretended to complete an investigation in which they knew the results would be inaccurate!

I don't understand why some seem eager to excuse both of those entities and place all the blame on GP - the scape goat for the bigger machine! Ahhh yes I do - they don't want it to jeopardize their opportunity to make $$$$ and/or it makes them feel all cozy and warm inside to be remotely associated with "the machine" ...

[TheGooner]

I'm not sure that I buy into all the conspiracy theories yet.
As a cover-up - if that is what it was - this was a poorly executed attempt ..

The anecdotal evidence being brought by affiliates of prior monthly earnings and the reported eCOGRA settlement amounts have demonstated that this "audit by chartered accountants" was a failed exercise.

I cannot beleive that the program thought anyone would accept numbers that are a small fraction (perhaps 1/100th in some cases?) of the prior amounts ...

So I'm a big fan of the eCOGRA incompetence explanation ...

[Caruso]

I don't understand why some seem eager to excuse both of those entities and place all the blame on GP

That thought was starting to enter my head as well.

If you had earnings with GP, you have been well and truly stitched up by eCOGRA's investigation. Not by GP.

GP can now say: "we've been audited, it was a fair audit by a reputable auditor and we made a fair settlement offer. The ungrateful bastards just went on and on like we owed them yet more money from some non-existent affiliate programme we know nothing about. What is this, extortion? What more do they want?".

And it's because of eCOGRA that GP can say this. Don't give me this "they did what they could" malarky. They didn't do their job, and they DID have the tools.

It was beholden to eCOGRA to do the job you expected of them. Well strike me dumb with a candyfloss stick: they didn't. Never mind why they didn't, that's a smokescreen. They didn't.

Of course it's about GP. But NOW it's not JUST just about GP.

[jarvi]

EXACTLY! And thus eCOGRA eg Microgaming spit in the eyes of affiliates when they pretended to complete an investigation in which they knew the results would be inaccurate!

I don't understand why some seem eager to excuse both of those entities and place all the blame on GP - the scape goat for the bigger machine! Ahhh yes I do - they don't want it to jeopardize their opportunity to make $$$$ and/or it makes them feel all cozy and warm inside to be remotely associated with "the machine" ...

Is this directed at me? If so, I have a hard enough time organising the thoughts in my head, so I'm not sure how you know what is going on in there.

[casinocrush]

Wow.. just as I think 'could this issue get any more ridiculous' - it surprises me once more.

Although perhaps now I think I'm not going to be surprised further.

Grand Prive - my opinion of this group has been on a steep decline ever since they switched to the "newer" affiliate program which dropped my stats instantly (I believe a management first step of their plan to reduce affiliate payments). I don't think I can have a lower opinion of an operator (but hey - perhaps they haven't stopped surprises yet).

eCOGRA - I really am unsure of what to think. If they are not ethical for webmasters - are they for players? The purpose of advertising places as 'eCOGRA safe' is to make players feel protected - I think perhaps players reading their reports and feedback from webmasters will now start to wonder - does eCOGRA approved give any reassurance (or will it in fact just back the operator). If eCOGRA want ANY credibility - they should be removing their seals now.

Microgaming - I really wish they'd get a grip and remove their licence with GP (before the name Microgaming starts to be too closely linked with the bad operator over the many web pages that are discussing this subject).

I don't know what GP thought they were doing with this latest stunt but maybe they were thinking ..
- even bad publicity is good publicity ?
- by having a 'official report' written up - people will read that 'GP have been proven to be fair' and not read the massive amount of text around / linked to it that reiterates that they are not ?

I would expect not to hear anything more on this for a few months (so they can possibly look at the impact these recent conversations etc have on search engine rankings for various pages mentioning the Grand Prive group), and the knock-on to business.

For me, I think this has just gone on way too long. Luckily I stopped promoting Grand Prive group when they wouldn't take my migration concerns seriously (or probably knew that players were not taken across to the new program correctly), and I've written off the hope of getting any money from Grand Prive now.

After all this, even if they "do the right thing" (which I believe in the least would be to re-open the affiliate program, run all the data through and process affiliate payments owed), who seriously is going to trust this bunch again?

The biggest concern I have is that they may already be owners of other 'newer' programs (we know Villa Fortuna already of course).

As for giving up on the industry just because of Grand Prive - no way! Whilst there are still honest people out there - there is plenty of good places to work with and I'm sure that in time Grand Prive will just wind themselves further into the ground and won't afford their licences and MGS will finally pull the plug on them.

Anyway... back to promoting the GOOD

[GamTrak]

As for giving up on the industry just because of Grand Prive - no way! Whilst there are still honest people out there - there is plenty of good places to work with and I'm sure that in time Grand Prive will just wind themselves further into the ground and won't afford their licences and MGS will finally pull the plug on them.

Good and valid points Geno, but it's hard to trust an industry that is unregulated with my lively hood.

On average I could pay my ENTIRE monthly debt with JUST my Grand Prive payment ALONE.

Trust me when I say that good today does not mean good tomorrow and I wish us ALL the best of luck dealing with a few scum bag, incompetent, arragant crooks!

[APCW]

APCW's Open Letter to Microgaming in Regard to the Grand Prive Affiliates



Dear Microgaming,

There comes a time in the course of business when the most profitable option is integrity. Your company helped to lay the very foundation of the online gambling industry, and throughout the years built an unmatched reputation of character and fairness. Now, however, the same industry you once led watches as you sit by silently, refusing to embrace the same qualities which helped to propel you to that leadership position. It is both saddening and discouraging that, at this most critical crossroads, you must be encouraged and to choose the ethical option.

The Microgaming name once carried with it a connotation of honesty, fairness, and credibility. These terms are still found in the verbiage of your website today. However, where those words once described a business philosophy and code of conduct, they now appear to be merely marketing fodder for a software product. It is long past time that those in the highest positions of your corporation look down toward the foundations upon which Microgaming was founded, and recommit to those ideals for their customers, for their partners, and for themselves.

Microgaming cannot remain silent and then criticize the dialog of others. They cannot sit by motionless and then be viewed as an industry leader. They cannot demand respect and then absolve themselves from responsibility. And they will not move past the wrongs which have been committed without first helping to do what is right. Therefore, the APCW has taken the initiative to create a list of suggestions we feel are in the best interest of those who have been damaged by the actions of the Grand Prive Affiliates, and which we believe are also in the best interest of Microgaming:



1) Take a proactive stance in revisiting the Grand Prive investigation, encourage the management and ownership of Grand Prive to cooperate by turning over all affiliate records from November of 2008 to present, and help provide any additional, missing, or contradictory data to independent investigators including, but NOT limited to, the eCogra Group so that an honest, fair, and transparent outcome can be achieved.

2) In the event that Grand Prive fails to cooperate in facilitating a fair and satisfactory outcome in any way, then we encourage Microgaming to remove them and any associated properties under the control of the same ownership and/or management, as a licensee immediately. Also, to bar all those directly associated with Grand Prive from obtaining a license or otherwise doing business with Microgaming in any way until this matter has been resolved.

3) Construct and execute a plan of specific protections to help prevent situations like the Grand Prive Affiliates from re-occurring, including a more stringent selection process for those applying to use the Microgaming software, ongoing audits of licensees cash flow and liquidity, a "code of conduct" for dealing with affiliates, and a requirement that these licensees hold some sort of reserve in escrow as a minimum protection for their contracted marketing partners.

[giggles7p]

I voiced this a couple of months ago and everyone suggested i was wrong and some Micro affiliate managers said that we shouldn't go after Microgaming because it would hurt the "good" casinos.....but i said that the "good" casinos should be the first ones on line to complain to protect thier reputation..!!!

When a noteable group breaks agreements with any faction of the Industry, then I feel it's everyone's business from the Players to the software providers, and even the other operators using the same software.

Frankly, it's a bit surprising to me that there was never an outcry from the other operators using MGS.

When a Software provider comes under scrutinty, fire, and negative Publicity, it certainly has the potential to hurt the honest operators business by virtue of the negative P.R. against the software provider.
Not to even mention, it allows Grand Prive to take at least SOME players off the field cheaper than their competition.
Hopefully not for long, but still not fair to the others, IMO.

If I owned an MGS unit, I'd be pissed off and demanding MGS do whatever it takes to rectify the situation in order to protect the brand name, and also to rid themselves of the offending group.
Naturally, Ecogra needs to do the same thing, as I mentioned earlier.

This is a no brainer for Ecogra.
It's probably a bit more complicated for MGS, but I'm sure they could rectify things if they wanted to. JMO.

[TheCPA]

encourage the management and ownership of Grand Prive to cooperate by turning over all affiliate records from November of 2008 to present

NO APCW,.....they need the records from way before 2008.
What Ecogra already audited WAS from 2008 forward, and I imagine it was pretty accurate!!!!!

They need to include the Referspot Records which preceeded 2008 by several years.

That's where the fallout is APCW. Please! Get it right!

[TheCPA]

Sorry to be abraisive, but don't you all see what is happening here???????
Duh!

Let me simplify this for you. Grand Prive most likely had an independent company run their affiliate program when they opened the first affiliate program. That company was "REFERSPOT".

For whatever the reasons were, they fired those guys, and took the affiliate prgram over under their own banner, IE: Grand Prive Affiliates.
They assured us all that the players would be tranfered to the NEW Grand Prive Affiliate Program. I think most of the players did get mapped over, but are not an actual part of the Grand Prive Data Base itself since it's inception.

These are two separate data bases. IE Referspot and Grand Prive.
Ecogra audited only the Grand Prive data base as the outrage would clearly indicate.

It's hard to imagine Ecogra didn't know about REFERSPOT, but they DO NOW, right??????

What do you say Ecogra? Finish the job, or toss this Grand Prive group to the curb so the public knows you guys are legit, and actually trying to be an independent self regulatory organization that is trying to legitimize, and protect our industry!

If you can't do this, then you are bogus, and just another tool that unethical, lying, and deceitful online casinos, {Mostly Migrogamings}, are using to perpetuate harm to the online gambling Industry.

If Migrogaming wants to be the leader in our Industry, now's the time to step up and protect your brand name! JMO.

[Anthony]

eCogra is well aware of Referspot now.

[Webzcas]

I've just got up the latest InfoPowa report on this:

eCOGRA Prevented from Completing Grand Prive Investigation

[joeyl]

Ecogra can't do anything.

Not very good with searching through lawyerese, so forgive me.

Kahnawake Gaming Commission

PART XXXII: GENERAL MATTERS
Decisions not subject to appeal or review

361. Except as otherwise provided in these Regulations, a decision of the
Commission made, or appearing to be made, under the Law or these Regulations
about an Interactive Gaming Licence, a Client Provider Authorization, a Key
Person Licence or a person with an interest or potential interest in an
Interactive Gaming Licence, Client Provider Authorization or Key Person
Licence, including but not limited to the granting, amending, suspending
or revoking of a licence or authorization:

(a) is final and conclusive;
(b) cannot be challenged, appealed against, reviewed, quashed, set
aside, or called in question in another way; and
(c) is not subject to any writ or order of any court, a tribunal or

another entity on any ground.

Do I read that right?

If Kahnawake get the hump and yank the GP license for breaking some kind
of "spirit of it all" type thing, which i'm sure they could find, Kahnawake can
quote the FU clause when GP object, no right of appeal.

Treat GP like the way advantage players have been?

No.

[Anthony]

The APCW is in communications with Kahnawake.

[GamTrak]

I voiced this a couple of months ago and everyone suggested i was wrong and some Micro affiliate managers said that we shouldn't go after Microgaming because it would hurt the "good" casinos.....but i said that the "good" casinos should be the first ones on line to complain to protect thier reputation..!!!

I remember this and I'm NOT one that did not agree with you.

I really hope more affiliates realize that it COULD happen to them with their current 'bread winner' program because GOOD today does NOT mean GOOD in the future!

Good job Joeyl & APCW! Atleast it's a place to start!

So has anyone figured out if a CLASS ACTION SUIT is feasible for us to pursue?

[TheCPA]

So has anyone figured out if a CLASS ACTION SUIT is feasible for us to pursue?

I understand the frustration, however, in this industry under the current regulation, or lack of it,.... any kind of legal intervention would be 100% fruitless.

Even sadder is that they all know this.
If a program, ANY PROGRAM, starts to fail and decides they might be able to live on longer if they dump on affiliates like Grand Prive did, then they will do this.

The only and best avenue we have,... and have ever had is trust and self regulation.
Unfortunately, Ecogra winds up being the best source we have in the self regulation arena, and they clearly aren't performing, or fulfilling the task their mission statement indicates they would. if they were, Grand Prive would be LONG GONE off the Ecogra site.

Yes, there might be some other avenues to take when dealing with dishonesty, and crooks within the industry, but all would hard pressed to ever see a lawsuit filed at this stage of the game.
Someday this will probably be feasible, Robin, but not today.

At this point, the best we can hope for is that Ecogra will blackball the Grand Prive Casinos, Kanawakee pulls their license, and hopefully they just go out of business,....which would actually be GOOD for Industry in this particular case.

Never thought I'd be compelled to say that about a Microgaming Group!