GP & eCOGRA...BS

[bb1web]

One small problem...The cost!

I dare say it would run into mega bucks.

Something I'm sure eCogra, MGS & GP are well aware of.

The other influence is the collateral damage.

I hope other programs are watching and learning from this. Regardless of the outcome, I cannot by farthest imagination believe that if numbers were crunched, again, regardless of outcome, that the way GP chose to leave the aff side ..... should now have proven to be the dumbest, most costly path which could have been taken.

and it ain't over yet.


..........


When all this began, and you can still find them because I made several posts and at nearly all the aff forums . .. that we should make an example out of GP, via a 2 week front page ad campaign using the same banner (so when surfers saw it, it always looked the same, therefore reminding them that what is going on is industry wide, not just that website's opinion) about blacklisting GP properties.

get the word out to those who are playing there now, as well as save future/potential players from ending up there.

And for their own good as well as ours because once proven to renege on money owed ... it is pertinent to ALL whom may be in financial situation with that party.

while I think the pressure that was exerted, has made enough dent to cause the once too-arrogant GP to even consider talking with us ... to now want negotiations because now, after all this time passed, their guilt has caused them to want to parlay.

I think NOT! Don't **** on my leg and tell me its raining. The pressure worked at least enough for them to work out .... this .... joke.


Now one more time I encourage that if this ends like it appears to be headed, with those owed getting paid 1 stinkin' month's worth of income .... that listen to me and this time barbecue their azzs in the above mentioned media blitz ... heck do it for just 5 days, and you'll see the end of GP, period.

and well deserved all things considered.

Or .... perhaps they'll be reading this thread and consider that these people MIGHT just do as I suggest, if they are treated in such a patronizing manner of only 1 month's income offered.


yes, I wonder what 5 days of every webmaster reading this, were to run the same easy-read, very visible 125x125 banner saying the below casinos are blacklisted industry-wide for reneging on money owed.


I'm betting that'd make the cost of doing the audit and paying these people what is right ... look like the bargain of the century.


I'll add my 2cents on MGS in a few minutes

[Caruso]

So has anyone figured out if a CLASS ACTION SUIT is feasible for us to pursue?

This is, ironically enough, exactly what factions of the Tusk / Eurolinx poker players contemplated, in some desperation, as they looked at losses, in some cases, of six-figure bankrolls. And of course, it would have been equally pointless.

It's ironic have Microgaming has, one way or another, ended up sticking it to both players and affiliates alike, with both parties talking along similar lines. Microgaming could, of course, make GP pay within a New York minute. I think some people are still a bit in denial about Microgaming's complicity in this. Again, the same goes for affiliates of Grand Prive as for the players of Eurolinx / Tusk. All have been affected in the similar ways.

[MichaelCorfman]

I just want to let folks know that since the current dispute with Grand Prive has to also do with the predecessor referspot program we have been doing some investigation on that front.

One of the things we have done is to confirm that referspot made the same promises as Grand Prive around affiliate income being an annuity for the life the the player. For example, we have screen shots from the referspot website as it existed in both 2003 and 2004 with the following quotations:

"When you join www.referspot.com, you will manage your online gambling business with the following outstanding features: ... Lifetime (annuity) income from your players."

and

"Earn up to 38% Commission on al Players you refer this month. The best part is that this is residual income (you continue to earn from players you refer .. for life)"

Michael

[bb1web]

I think it is fair to say that all numbers, especially involving financial transactions between players and the casinos .... are available in the records at MGS.

As far as ecogra goes ... is there anybody reading this that can say they truly believe ecogra is a legit AND competent deal?

I can't, they haven't been more than another "safebet" to me .... for a long time. Whether from lack of legit, or lack of competent, I can't guess at this time, but it amounts the same.


You can't be about policing and ignore how GP did affs. That action proves that ecogra isn't about the players because since when was the last time you saw one party get screwed, that you didn't feel like the others at risk, shouldn't be warned?

So what if we're affs, and they're players. Are relationships (debts) to affs any lesser than those between the casino and its players?

Here's another example if you'll forgive the exotic reach.

If you see one party, which is in a position of power, lets say a Tiger, in with two other parties, lets say some lambs and goats, and the tiger eats the goats, is not then the lamb to be warned immediately! And not wait until the Tiger has killed some lambs before warning?

ridiculous. Of course you warn the lambs before one is hurt, and ecogra, by ignoring the plight of the aff, is in effect waiting for the lamb to be hurt, before issuing warnings.

The only people such a system is acceptable to ... are those who aren't lambs therefore don't risk being one of the first eaten by an entity which has already proven that IF the power is within its reach ... it will exercise that power when and how it sees fit.

ie, they'll screw the players next because that's all that's left.


....................................

about software providers



If you compare MGS to any of its peers, well its Tiger Woods syndrome. There's MGS, and then there's who is fighting to take a distant second place.

But get down to it ... MGS isn't responsible for actions of entities which it only rents stuff to ... that is unless you want to hold RTG, Playtech, etc, responsible for their licensees.

It was just a fantastic thing MGS did, to step up and always make sure their reputation was kept shiny, by making sure everybody got paid. And I imagine in their agenda, more importantly ... it was smart. Good business to step up. They earned my loyalty when they did that, and now they'll see it fade with every inaction here forth (sadly).

But was it absolutely necessary they do those things?

One glance at RTG answers that. So unless MGS is guilty of intentionally hiding info that GP wouldn't want to get out ... then I don't think you can hold them any more responsible than you do RTG when one of their casinos goes to crap.

that said, I think it was a very bad decision, possibly a fatal one on the long, long run, to not have done this different. Time will tell.

[TheCPA]

Just remember one thing folks, {especially directed to Ecogra, BTW}, the GRAND PRIVE AFFILIATE PROGRAM was a rather short lived adventure, or nightmare.

The Referspot Data Base is where most of the promises have been broken, IMO.
Auditing the Grand Prive Data Base, and not including the main database of Referspot,....where the majority of players were aquired is simply incompetent on behalf of Ecogra, IMO.

Will you all say you didn't know about Referspot?????

If you guys could actually say that, then you have no business doing what you claim to be doing in this Industry.

If you say you DID know about Referspot, and agreed to just audit the short lived Grand Prive Affiliate database then you are in CAHOOTS with Grand Prive and Microgaming,.......and you have no business doing what you CLAIM to be doing for the Industry.
JMO, of course!

[GamTrak]

Hi Nick,

I agree with what you are saying it's just that I have to try and if it's not possible then I will give up.

Today I hope to get feedback from some Class Action Suit laywers and go from there. If they say there is no way to recoup my revenue then I'll accept it and act accordingly.

I understand the frustration, however, in this industry under the current regulation, or lack of it,.... any kind of legal intervention would be 100% fruitless.

Even sadder is that they all know this.
If a program, ANY PROGRAM, starts to fail and decides they might be able to live on longer if they dump on affiliates like Grand Prive did, then they will do this.

The only and best avenue we have,... and have ever had is trust and self regulation.
Unfortunately, Ecogra winds up being the best source we have in the self regulation arena, and they clearly aren't performing, or fulfilling the task their mission statement indicates they would. if they were, Grand Prive would be LONG GONE off the Ecogra site.

Yes, there might be some other avenues to take when dealing with dishonesty, and crooks within the industry, but all would hard pressed to ever see a lawsuit filed at this stage of the game.
Someday this will probably be feasible, Robin, but not today.

At this point, the best we can hope for is that Ecogra will blackball the Grand Prive Casinos, Kanawakee pulls their license, and hopefully they just go out of business,....which would actually be GOOD for Industry in this particular case.

Never thought I'd be compelled to say that about a Microgaming Group!

[nitro]

Today I hope to get feedback from some Class Action Suit laywers and go from there...

What a waste of time and money! The idea given here was just a hint because MGS could be hit much harder and if the pressure is upheld consistently it is quite possible not only to get the owed money back but let say twice as much as a recompansation for the long wait. An outcome like this would stabilize the structures for years but maybe it's better to wait until posters like the above start to leave...

[GamTrak]

Hi Nitro, I haven't invested any money yet, but if they say there is a chance to recoup what was stolen from me then I will most definatly spend as much as I can to see this thru to the end. I've already lost enough to make me want to leave the industry so what's the worse that can happen?

I refuse to work 12 hours a day to have it all taken away overnight while the crook is allowed to do business as usual. I've not invested nearly 10 years growing my business to work for free. I just can't sit by and be screwed over like this without atleast TRYING to doing something for my situation.

[joeyl]

Here's another example if you'll forgive the exotic reach.

If you see one party, which is in a position of power, lets say a Tiger, in with two other parties, lets say some lambs and goats, and the tiger eats the goats, is not then the lamb to be warned immediately! And not wait until the Tiger has killed some lambs before warning?

You're not warning players about this current setup, you're heeding a warning given 6 months after Ecogra opened it's doors.

It's a race to the bottom I'm afraid.

Affs are now the frontrunners.

[GamTrak]

Now one more time I encourage that if this ends like it appears to be headed, with those owed getting paid 1 stinkin' month's worth of income .... that listen to me and this time barbecue their azzs in the above mentioned media blitz ... heck do it for just 5 days, and you'll see the end of GP, period.

and well deserved all things considered.

Or .... perhaps they'll be reading this thread and consider that these people MIGHT just do as I suggest, if they are treated in such a patronizing manner of only 1 month's income offered.

I'm ready to do a Media Blitz and tell all with shows like 60 Minutes and others. So if they are reading this thread this will put there A$$ on notice because I'm mad as hell and I'm NOT taking it anymore!

If Microgaming and eCOGRA feel that the Grand Pricks are being fair to us then let them tell it to the news MEDIA, other online players and affiliates that will see any reports over this bogus closing down a program & 'audit' by 'professionals'!

[Anthony]

I'm mad as hell and I'm NOT taking it anymore!

That sentiment is echoing throughout the affiliate community. I just hope the people who have the power to change it, listen and act accordingly.

[Caruso]

Will you all say you didn't know about Referspot?????

If you guys could actually say that, then you have no business doing what you claim to be doing in this Industry.

If you say you DID know about Referspot, and agreed to just audit the short lived Grand Prive Affiliate database then you are in CAHOOTS with Grand Prive and Microgaming,.......and you have no business doing what you CLAIM to be doing for the Industry.
JMO, of course!

In spirit, this is exactly what I said in my article.

eCOGRA is at best incompetent. At worst, they are complicit. As far as I can see, they are both. They're incompetent because the audit was bollocks - I take it nobody seriously buys the absurd "they only audited what they were given" argument?

If, for example, you only "audited" the losses and ignored the wins, you'd have a casino where no player ever apparently won anything. I assume you wouldn't buy that on the basis of the eCOGRA "selective audit" defence?

You either audit everything or nothing. eCOGRA to all intents and purposes audited nothing.

Of course, if they were aware of Referspot and ignored it, they are also complicit as well as incompetent. And I think it's fairly clear that they do now know about Referspot, even if in their rank ineptitude they did not before.

Do not for one minute think about absolving Microgaming / eCOGRA of this. They are as complicit as Grand Privè.

[GamTrak]

Here is some more crap for ya!

Why does Grand Prive's NEWS section only consist of the report released by the 'professionals' at eCOGRA on the website today?


eCOGRA REPORT ON THE GRAND PRIVÉ AFFILIATE PROGRAM INVESTIGATION

15 February 2010 Following a number of Internet‐based allegations concerning the closure of the Grand Privé Affiliate Program (‘the Program’) on 1 December 2008, eCOGRA's Compliance and Advisory Services department was engaged by the management of the company on 17 November 2009.

Grand Prive sure is HAPPY with the work eCOGRA did on their behalf with this 'audit' as well as delighted to be flaughting it in our face! They even display the eCOGRA seal to make it look all nice and official!

Click here to view the Final Report
BRAVO Grand Pricks!

[joeyl]

You either audit everything or nothing. eCOGRA to all intents and purposes audited nothing.

The problem from the getgo was they can only audit what they are given to audit by Grand Prive.

Do not for one minute think about absolving Microgaming / eCOGRA of this. They are as complicit as Grand Privè.

Complicit is too strong.

It's a bad system.

Roping in aff databases is even harder, because they're independent.

The problem is, players are told to believe the audited numbers. Now the affs are in the same position.

If you know your casinos from a player advocacy point of view, you know this firm are not great anyway.

I know that Caruso, and you know that Caruso, but it seems the only other person to know that is your pal the Casinomeister. They are Ecogra accredited though.

That's where they, Ecogra, are at fault. & maybe Micro for dealing with them. & affs for promoting them. As they've been told just too many times to mention.

Who should swallow? That's now the question. Just the affs?

[pjotter]

Here is some more crap for ya!

Why does Grand Prive's NEWS section only consist of the report released by the 'professionals' at eCOGRA on the website today?


eCOGRA REPORT ON THE GRAND PRIVÉ AFFILIATE PROGRAM INVESTIGATION

Grand Prive sure is HAPPY with the work eCOGRA did on their behalf with this 'audit' as well as delighted to be flaughting it in our face! They even display the eCOGRA seal to make it look all nice and official!

Click here to view the Final Report
BRAVO Grand Pricks!

eCOGRA and Grand Prive really fooled us this time. They get us more or less to agree to launch an "independent" investigation. The investigation was purely pro forma as it deliberately shows that all affiliates is owed a much lower amount than they expect (Referspot or not). All affiliates complain, of course, so GP avoids to even pay the rather small amounts, the investigation showed, because complaints are the same as not accepting to receive any amount.

Nonetheless, Grand Prive gets an official result of an investigation by eCOGRA (ie Microgaming). And eCOGRA (and Microgaming) will now argue that the investigation is correct given the information they received, and that they have no way to force GP to remove the report from their sites, even though the affiliates have not at least received the promised amount - because they didn't accept it.

[universal4]

I think they should re-open the investigation, from the beginning, and investigate Referspot as well as GP numbers, and allow ALL affiliates to get paid if money was earned....not just 58 people....

And, unless they actually plan on handling the payments, they have no business asking for bank details.

If they need the bank details, explain what the bank details are for if they have no plans on using the bank details themselves. (I have never once seen a valid reason for asking for them in the first place)

Rick
Universal4

[Caruso]

BTW, don't say I didn't warn you: The Prophet Speaketh:

Grand Prive, facing what looked like an almost inevitable audit, appear to have engaged eCOGRA as an excercise in damage-limitation and cover up. They could have accepted the involvement of a reputable third-party affiliate representative, yet they specifically refused it. Why? One can only surmise that Microgaming, Grand Prive and eCOGRA did not want anyone outside the Microgaming family getting access to the data involved. Again, why? To enable the conclusions to be based on false data? To downplay the extent of the debt? If not, why not give people the kind of representation they want, and engage their full trust?
This makes no sense whatsoever.

I suspect this will turn out to be another eCOGRA whitewash, much like the Jackpot Factory whitewash, with a handful of the most problematically noisy affiliates offered gestural commission payments with the proviso that all negative press cease from that point on.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong. I suspect I won't be.

I wrote that six weeks ago, and have not edited it since.

But I cannot walk or water or feed the five thousand just yet.

[Former Member 14]

I think they should re-open the investigation, from the beginning, and investigate Referspot as well as GP numbers

Problem is or so we're told, unless GP agrees to hand over the referspot data, neither MGS or eCOGRA can force them to.

As I've said on CasinoMeister many times and here too. MGS & eCOGRA are in conflict of interest. So the chances of being led up the garden path is possible.

Were MGS aware of referspot?

Seems they were. They apparently assisted GP in transferring DB records on the change over from referspot to the new system.

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...tml#post350741

Also a note worthy mentioning...

Chris Hobbs is the Head of Corporate Affairs for Microgaming. He's one of three independent directors at eCOGRA.

Stuffed if I know how someone can be independent if one is employed by the same company (MGS) that funded the start up of eCOGRA, the same company who seems very much an active part of it today.

If affiliates who have been shafted by Grand Prive` intend to do something then you all need to band together and figure out what your going to do.

Turning this thread into another 20; 30; 50 page novel ain't solving anything. It sure ain't getting whatever money has been stolen from them.

The more talk and the less action, the less likely you will get what is rightfully yours.

A couple of people have suggested a class action. Thsi maybe a good start but reiterating if you only intend to discuss this and nothing gets down about it, you'll be here for another 2 years with no money and Grand Prive` will have shafted you even further.


Cheers



Dave

[GamTrak]

If affiliates who have been shafted by Grand Prive` intend to do something then you all need to band together and figure out what your going to do.

Turning this thread into another 20; 30; 50 page novel ain't solving anything. It sure ain't getting whatever money has been stolen from them.

The more talk and the less action, the less likely you will get what is rightfully yours.

A couple of people have suggested a class action. Thsi maybe a good start but reiterating if you only intend to discuss this and nothing gets down about it, you'll be here for another 2 years with no money and Grand Prive` will have shafted you even further.

If you mean me then I'm gonna do BOTH thank you very much. Talk and action is my preference. You can do as you please and let me do as I please. We have a sheriff that is capable of telling folks how to behave.

[GamTrak]

BTW, don't say I didn't warn you: The Prophet Speaketh:




I wrote that six weeks ago, and have not edited it since.

But I cannot walk or water or feed the five thousand just yet.

That's ok, just keep on doing what you do! lol