There Used To Be A Time..

[Triple7]

It's funny and a little bit sad and I don't want to say it to insult you at all, but.. At the same time in one post, you come up with the solution you use, and you also instantly claim it to be useless a few sentences later. It's not worth anything. Because, well.. It just won't do anything.

You are right: Nobody we deal with as affiliates is allowed to agree to anything legal. And, a TOS would just be that, won't it?

As 'regular' affiliates, we so far have no foot to stand on. We're NEVER sure if we get paid, and how much. And, as per usual, we've got to swallow whatever the TOS puts on the menu.

It is the truth. I can put whatever conditions I want and a program can accept them, but it has to be taken to court in Panama or Costa Rica, it makes no sense at all. Of course, it's extra pressure, but I don't see many affiliates going to court in Panama, BIV, Belize, etc. I don't even know the law there, not even the basic. Besides that, if you go and win, who says there's something to take in those postbox companies over there?

Nothing worse than false security.

Contract law can be complex. If you're based in the UK and the program is representing an online casino with a UK license, why not agree about UK being the jurisdiction where a discussion will be taken to court. If you than have a UK-proof t&c (or addition) than you at least know you won't lose your case on formal grounds.

I do agree that 'regular' affiliates are in a difficult position. The big companies have legal teams, more pressure to put, etc. I agree with the posts of Shay. I think that is the only solution.

[Triple7]

Thank you for sharing this. But I have to say that now I really find it hard to believe. Are you saying that for instance Legend Affiliates, or Martyn Beacon rather, has signed and agreed to all of this? Casino Max is on your site, and you stated all programs you've added agreed. On the Legend Affiliate site, you can clearly see that no deals are done. Their TOS states:

8.2 The program will not enter into any exclusive marketing arrangement with a single marketing partner.

How did you do that then?

Sorry to be nosy, just curious, as it could benefit all affiliates and that includes me. If this works with all affiliate programs, I too will have a professional person write and set up my business TOS and have casino affiliate programs sign it. I just find it hard to believe they will.

Gwages casinos too. Did they sign for all this?

They will agree, but the question is if the affiliate manager is allowed to do so. For that you need to know about his procurement, etc.

[Top Online Casinos]

To be fair, any solution we come up with or are working with currently is not a silver bullet. Even a standard real world, above the table industry can have a party back out of a contract or choose to ignore certain clauses.

What it does, however, is gives the affiliate better footing in pursuing action. Just like a patent, it is only as strong as the willingness to enforce it.

Of course I did not mean to belittle anyone or anyone's solution what so ever with my answer. Please keep that in mind. What I meant is, that even if a TOS is signed, and perhaps agreed to, all they need to do is 'change their TOS' which they can do whenever they want, and let it state that who ever has a tos that has been agreed to is worth a spec of dust after 4..3..2..1.. now.

It just won't do anything.

Hi Judge, I am a casino affiliate such and such. You know, gambling? Well, we work with this business who has agreed to our TOS, which you can see here. And now they refuse to treat us abiding our TOS.

Judge: Gambling you say?

...

[Top Online Casinos]

They will agree, but the question is if the affiliate manager is allowed to do so. For that you need to know about his procurement, etc.

I'll ask my own contacts if they would agree on a TOS like the above. And, if they would keep to it.

I'll ask any affiliate manager coming to think of it! Poll time.

[allfreechips]

With Martyn we have an agreement off of this but not exact. But good enough for me to include. Not 100% set in stone with this but a good start.

[Top Online Casinos]

With Martyn we have an agreement off of this but not exact. But good enough for me to include. Not 100% set in stone with this but a good start.

Martyn is a person you don't need any TOS on. He can be trusted at all times.

[DanHorvat]

Not a bad idea with these T&Cs that programs must sign.

But it's a napkin contract. Making one in USA means everything, and in rest of the world it's worthless. Programs are in various jurisdictions and they didn't choose them for no reason.

Chances of actually enforcing this contract - especially as you agree to the program's T&Cs at the same time which probably contradict your napkin terms - are close to zero.

It's a good start though. If the contract can be polished up a bit and if more affiliates would use that identical contract, it would mean something.

[MJM]

Please join my new Facebook group where we can network in a place without censorship or the influence of sponsors. I have no motivation in creating this group other than that I miss the days where affiliates participated more in a community (and also I can't deal with the Chinese spammers here anymore)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/718901878313474/

[Top Online Casinos]

Please join my new Facebook group where we can network in a place without censorship or the influence of sponsors. I have no motivation in creating this group other than that I miss the days where affiliates participated more in a community (and also I can't deal with the Chinese spammers here anymore)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/718901878313474/

Ha, you noticed the hong ching duck chin don ding spam people too?

Facebook is not the place for me.

[Top Online Casinos]

Not a bad idea with these T&Cs that programs must sign.

But it's a napkin contract. Making one in USA means everything, and in rest of the world it's worthless. Programs are in various jurisdictions and they didn't choose them for no reason.

Chances of actually enforcing this contract - especially as you agree to the program's T&Cs at the same time which probably contradict your napkin terms - are close to zero.

It's a good start though. If the contract can be polished up a bit and if more affiliates would use that identical contract, it would mean something.

We would have to found an organization that would then work and function as a sort of union. If the aff program should want to work with any of the amazing affiliates within this union, they would have to first agree to the TOS.

[DanHorvat]

Yes, that's what I had in mind.

Likewise, if any union member deals with program(s) known to not sign the contract, then he/she is kicked out.

Nice proactive approach.

However, there will be issues. For example, a big reputable honest program that has neg carryover and can't sign the document. What then?

[Top Online Casinos]

Yes, that's what I had in mind.

Likewise, if any union member deals with program(s) known to not sign the contract, then he/she is kicked out.

Nice proactive approach.

However, there will be issues. For example, a big reputable honest program that has neg carryover and can't sign the document. What then?

I think, asking no negative carryover is a little unfair to be honest. But that's just me. Partner is partner. Lose or win. If we want them to be fair to us, we should be fair to them.

Something I would want to see is 100% transparent stats. From first hit, to sign up / download and so forth. A way to be able to follow any player with as much details as is possible.

[sweetbet]

Excellent thread !! Raises so many important points and issues.

[allfreechips]

Big programs with negative carry over don't land on my sites...

[GCG]

Sign the petition not to attend any affiliate conference before paysafe has removed their gambling ads / casinos on hacked pages can not attend / programs with no transparent stats can not get the gpwa approved tracking seal

Just some ideas

[allfreechips]

If and when i attend a major show i will bring 1000 shirts listing all the people and programs that screwed me over and hand them out all day

[Former Member 14]

Sign the petition not to attend any affiliate conference

Like affiliate programs, these conferences would be dead ducks if their primary attendees (affiliates) boycotted events. There are many entities who profit from "us". Yet, we're the ones who always cop the raw deal.

[-Shay-]

Yes, that's what I had in mind.

Likewise, if any union member deals with program(s) known to not sign the contract, then he/she is kicked out.

Nice proactive approach.

However, there will be issues. For example, a big reputable honest program that has neg carryover and can't sign the document. What then?

I would think that a set of "best practices" would be ideal here. Some of those best practices could be deal breakers (ie - tranparency in stats such as deposits, cashouts, all fees detailed, no quotas that provide grounds for account closure or theft of players, no retroactive changes applied to players brought in before the date of the agreed upon change, etc). While other terms such as policy of handling negative carryover or tiered revenue share could be "strongly suggested" but not deal breakers in and of themselves.

Ideally speaking, none of us are promoting an outfit that isn't "cooperative". However, we all surely have at least one or two outfits that we should have dropped years ago if current posture is the sole indicator but there's a few heavy hitters in that affiliate account, so you keep promoting them based on that. I think such an alliance would crumble instantly if affiliates were told specifically who they could and could not promote. Instead, perhaps going the route of supporting an alliance with the following programs and wishing best of luck with the rest is the way to go rather than making it a "members only" type of club. That way, there's no micro-managing of one's business by the organization going on.

[CCIndex]

We have simply added a Blacklisted section on our website. We have been bitten by a few affiliate programs already. We are tired of working hard and then to top it off we need to run after the money! We are taking it easy so far with these listings and give the benefit of the doubt to some programs, but we will name and shame crooks and thieves.. Online casinos are popping out like mushrooms. Sometimes I wonder if they really have an adequate budget to pay on time and run proper promotions for their players!

[-Shay-]

We have simply added a Blacklisted section on our website. We have been bitten by a few affiliate programs already. We are tired of working hard and then to top it off we need to run after the money! We are taking it easy so far with these listings and give the benefit of the doubt to some programs, but we will name and shame crooks and thieves.. Online casinos are popping out like mushrooms. Sometimes I wonder if they really have an adequate budget to pay on time and run proper promotions for their players!

This I can 100% support.