Programs NOT affiliated with EM

[Fergie]

Wagerprofits, I believe that using the term 'witch hunt' for what many affiliates are trying to accomplish here was a direct insult to me and others who are speaking out.

What some affiliates are trying to do, including myself, is make sure that some very influential individuals, call them CAP or PAP or EF or whatever, is forced to behave ethically for the good of the entire industry. We can all make money without lying, stealing and selling fake certification seals. Programs who publish the seals on their sites know that they are fraudulent. What does that say about them?

Are we to just assume that everybody knows they're fake so lets ignore it and just move on? Is complaining about fake certification a 'witch hunt', even when the same people who sell the certificaion have been caught running an affiliate program for a rogue poker room and not paying affiliates? All poker affiliates who promoted CardSpike have NOT been paid yet, by the way.

What else should we ignore, because, after all, the same scoundrels put on great conventions. How far is too far? Is there any limit, if so, what is it, we need to know so that we can step up and do whatever we can to correct it without it being called a witch hunt.

[universal4]

Does that mean that those that continue to carry the CAP seal or work with them are uncaring affiliates?

Actually don't answer that, probably best not to

But the damage this is doing looks like it is now going beyond just CAP but bleeding down in to the industry as a whole

Now that is a shame and begs the question is it all worth it

Well said.

Rick
Universal4

[Fergie]

But the damage this is doing looks like it is now going beyond just CAP but bleeding down in to the industry as a whole

What about the damage to the credibility of our industry as a whole?

Now that is a shame and begs the question is it all worth it

I'm likely myopic on this issue, but I can't understand why anybody with an ounce of integrity would question whether it's worth it or not.

If it means that unethical, corrupt people don't have the lions share of influence over the online gambling industry through conventions and communities, then the answer to "is it worth it?" is a resounding yes.

[Jinnia]

I have a lot of respect for Shaun. He's the only AM who had the balls to come into this thread and speak up. Even though he made it clear he's not associated with EM, he's being burned at the stake.

Jinnia,
You said "If you truly want to know, my answer is no, I won't work with WP if the seal is dropped. Not until at least 6 months to a year goes by.

Now, you are going to ask me why I won't, and why a time span?

Don't bother, it's just my personal choice." in response to Shaun's question inquiring whether you would continue to promote Wager Profits if he removed the CAP seal.

So, I have to ask, how many programs have you decided to drop?
Is Wager Profits the only program you've blacklisted to date?
Will you be removing Full Tilt and Poker Stars from your site?

It seems to me that you're doing exactly the type of thing that CAP is being roqued for....
It's my way or the highway! Remove CAP's seal or I'll drop your site from my portal!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that one of the major complaints about CAP? Call it what you want, blackmail, coercion, demand, it's the same tactic that you're accusing CAP of using.

And why a six month or one year ban on Wager Profits even if they remove the seal? This sounds like a personal vendetta to me, not really anything to do with CAP. Shaun is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Shaun,
I moved your banner to the top of my home page in a show of support and respect. It will remain there at least until the end of March.

If you think I have Fulltilt on my site, I'd like to know which page. I do have Poker Stars, are they a roue poker room? I have only 5 poker rooms up, and I checked on their site and didn't see a paid for seal from anyone, but yes, I could have missed one.

I have removed all but one group, and did remove all brands but 2 from that group, but to be fair, I'll remove those two in a few minutes, then wait the time span on them also.

And you pokerkeep, have no idea of what the hell you are are talking about! Twist it anyway you want with whatever word you want, for that dramatic effect!! To say I singled out only WP, is a bunch of BS!!!

I am not trying to "force" anyone to do anythang that they see fit for them, and I will do as I see fit, for ME!! You nor any one else will "force" me to do it "your/their" way!

[Jinnia]

Jinnia

I am not going to ask you any more questions, I just wish you luck in running your business as a huge percentage of the rooms and casinos have the CAP/PAP seal.

I wish you luck.

Shaun

Thank you Shaun!!

I'm not looking for a huge percentage, and I appreciate what you said!!

[thepokerkeep]

If you think I have Fulltilt on my site, I'd like to know which page. I do have Poker Stars, are they a roue poker room? I have only 5 poker rooms up, and I checked on their site and didn't see a paid for seal from anyone, but yes, I could have missed one.

I have removed all but one group, and did remove all brands but 2 from that group, but to be fair, I'll remove those two in a few minutes, then wait the time span on them also.

And you pokerkeep, have no idea of what the hell you are are talking about! Twist it anyway you want with whatever word you want, for that dramatic effect!! To say I singled out only WP, is a bunch of BS!!!

I am not trying to "force" anyone to do anythang that they see fit for them, and I will do as I see fit, for ME!! You nor any one else will "force" me to do it "your/their" way!

Jinnia
I never said you singled out WP. I asked you who else you had removed from you site. Nothing I said is BS. Read my post, it was a question!

You are trying to force others to do what you want. By giving them an ultimatum... "either remove the seal or I'm dropping you".... that is definitely trying to "force" someone to do something.

I'm not trying to force you to do anything... I'm merely pointing out that you are acting much like Lou did on CAP. Just calling a spade a spade, as they say.

BTW - Whether a site displays the CAP seal or not really doesn't mean anything. Pokerstars, Carbon (PDC), and many others are CAP certified. They paid for the right to display the seal.

My apologies, you don't promote FT. But you do promote Carbon, PDC and Stars... all have paid for CAP certification and all are still on your site.

So, is it your view that it's alright for a program to pay for CAP certification as long as they don't advertise it by displaying the seal?

I'm afraid I really don't understand the difference. Please explain?

[Jinnia]

Jinnia
I never said you singled out WP. I asked you who else you had removed from you site. Nothing I said is BS. Read my post, it was a question!

You are trying to force others to do what you want. By giving them an ultimatum... "either remove the seal or I'm dropping you".... that is definitely trying to "force" someone to do something.

I'm not trying to force you to do anything... I'm merely pointing out that you are acting much like Lou did on CAP. Just calling a spade a spade, as they say.

BTW - Whether a site displays the CAP seal or not really doesn't mean anything. Pokerstars, Carbon (PDC), and many others are CAP certified. They paid for the right to display the seal.

My apologies, you don't promote FT. But you do promote Carbon, PDC and Stars... all have paid for CAP certification and all are still on your site.

So, is it your view that it's alright for a program to pay for CAP certification as long as they don't advertise it by displaying the seal?

I'm afraid I really don't understand the difference. Please explain?

I rechecked Carbon / PDC - xxxwww.pdcaffiliates.com/
and Poker Stars - I couldn't find any paid for seal, give
link to the page(s) these types of seals are located.

You are trying to force others to do what you want. By giving
them an ultimatum... "either remove the seal or I'm dropping you"....
that is definitely trying to "force" someone to do something.

You are making untrue statements. I have NEVER said to ANY affiliate program to drop the seal(s) or I'm going to stop promoting them. WTH!!!

I do ask if they are going to continue paying for seals, if they say they are, I only tell them I can not promote them then, I DO NOT give them an ultimatum!!!

So, is it your view that it's alright for a program to pay for
CAP certification as long as they don't advertise it by displaying the seal?

No, I am not and have not said that! Are you saying affiliate programs pay for any seal, then don't display it? Why would they do that?

[thepokerkeep]

I rechecked Carbon / PDC - xxxwww.pdcaffiliates.com/
and Poker Stars - I couldn't find any paid for seal, give
link to the page(s) these types of seals are located.

They don't show the seal, but, they did pay for CAP certification so they could certainly display the seal if they wish to.
So, are they coming off your site?

You are making untrue statements. I have NEVER said to ANY affiliate program to drop the seal(s) or I'm going to stop promoting them. WTH!!!

I do ask if they are going to continue paying for seals, if they say they are, I only tell them I can not promote them then, I DO NOT give them an ultimatum!!!

Tell me what the difference is? Word play... If you want to do business with me, remove the seal! say it any way you want, it all comes out the same in the end.

No, I am not and have not said that! Are you saying affiliate programs pay for any seal, then don't display it? Why would they do that?

I'm saying PDC, Carbon and Pokerstars pay for CAP certification which gives them the right to display the seal. Again, this is the question.... are you removing them from your site?

[Jinnia]

They don't show the seal, but, they did pay for CAP certification so they could certainly display the seal if they wish to.
So, are they coming off your site?

Yes, if they are 'paying' to be certified by anyone, they will be removed!!!

Seals are to be 'earned', not 'paid' for!

Tell me what the difference is? Word play... If you want to do business with me, remove the seal! say it any way you want, it all comes out the same in the end.

No damn word play here. Twist it into your way of thinking, that's anyones right to 'assume'! I ask, get an answer, then act upon the answer, period!!

I'm saying PDC, Carbon and Pokerstars pay for CAP certification which gives them the right to display the seal. Again, this is the question.... are you removing them from your site?

Again!! Yes, IF proof can be shown they pay for any certification seal, they come off my site!!

Clear enough??

[thepokerkeep]

The proof is posted in the CAP certified program listing at this address.... http://www.casinoaffiliateprograms.c...e-programs.php

[Betpartners]

Wagerprofits, I believe that using the term 'witch hunt' for what many affiliates are trying to accomplish here was a direct insult to me and others who are speaking out.

What some affiliates are trying to do, including myself, is make sure that some very influential individuals, call them CAP or PAP or EF or whatever, is forced to behave ethically for the good of the entire industry. We can all make money without lying, stealing and selling fake certification seals. Programs who publish the seals on their sites know that they are fraudulent. What does that say about them?

Are we to just assume that everybody knows they're fake so lets ignore it and just move on? Is complaining about fake certification a 'witch hunt', even when the same people who sell the certificaion have been caught running an affiliate program for a rogue poker room and not paying affiliates? All poker affiliates who promoted CardSpike have NOT been paid yet, by the way.

What else should we ignore, because, after all, the same scoundrels put on great conventions. How far is too far? Is there any limit, if so, what is it, we need to know so that we can step up and do whatever we can to correct it without it being called a witch hunt.

It is what it is simple as that

This CAP thing has run its course but some simply wont allow it and will continously drag it up time and time again which is fine and their free choice but when they start to drag other reputable gambling sites into it as Jinnia has with wager profits then it indeed does become a witch hunt

If you are insulted by that then theres not much we can do is there, actions speak louder than words and despite arkyts attempts at changing the reasons behind what Jinnia has done, something that Jinnia herself has not attempted to do by the way the reasons that Jinnia stopped usisng Wager profits is purely because they carries the CAP seal no other reason.

It is written on here in plain black and white.

Now if that is a principle and moralistic stand fair enough but when wagerprofits them asks if he removes the seal will Jinnia then stay on and the answer is still no for at least 6 months then it becomes a witch hunt, nothing less and those that support this are then partaking in that witch hunt

I am sorry in advance if that upsets people, i dont mean, i merely mean to say that is what it has become.

You see you do not have the monopoly on condemnation, wagerprofits, myself and others here all condemn CAP for what they have done, but we feel that these threads are no longer serving the best interest of the community.

But the fact that we also condemn CAP is ignored because we dare suggest its time to move on, that is double standards.

The facts are that those that want to continue this CAP thing are now employing CAP attitudes and tactics and this thread and the treatment of wagerprofits are proof of that.

Not all by the way just some of you.

And so here we are, the GPWA community is starting to split over CAP, how ironic hey and all the time more and more sportsbooks, casinos etc are signing up over at CAP

Talk about shooting oneself in the foot.

[GamTrak]

It is a good thing to follow the first law of holes; if you are in one, stop digging.

[1988 D. Healey Observer in J. Care (ed.) Sayings of the Eighties]

[Jinnia]

The proof is posted in the CAP certified program listing at this address.... http://www.casinoaffiliateprograms.c...e-programs.php

I won't go to check, but the programs who might have stopped paying, is that area updated on a regular basis?

The poker page is gone from my site, and the other program also.

[Jinnia]

If you are insulted by that then theres not much we can do is there, actions speak louder than words and despite arkyts attempts at changing the reasons behind what Jinnia has done, something that Jinnia herself has not attempted to do by the way the reasons that Jinnia stopped usisng Wager profits is purely because they carries the CAP seal no other reason.

What have I done?

Exercise my right to promote or not promote based upon her own
personal decision??

God forbid that someone has any free will left!!!

[Betpartners]

What have I done?

Exercise my right to promote or not promote based upon her own
personal decision??

God forbid that someone has any free will left!!!

Jinnia i actually did say that you had not attempted to disguise the reasons why you dropped wagerprofits, that is being done by others.

Yes of course you are free to do as you wish and may it always remain that way, but you did bring your reasons in to the public domain and therefore some, myself included are going to feel entitled to an opinion if we so wish, freedom of action and speech works both ways.

I just feel that your reasons and comments even after wagerprofits asked what you would do if they removed the seal are erroneous and basically are saying that wagerprofits are guilty by association.

I know you never said those exact words but thats how it looks to me anyway.

But your right that is your free choice and i support your right to do as you wish, we are free people.

[Jinnia]

Thank you BetPartners!

I did NOT bring WP into this, Shaun entered the thread of his own free will,
and wanted to know if they dropped the paid for seal, if I'd work with him, I
answered.

I have asked several affiliate programs if they are going to keep paying to
be certified, some answered, so remains quiet. The ones that answered, I
was waiting for their decission making was over, then make my decision,
but I went ahead and removed those also.

If it was only about making money, I sure wouldn't have removed the ones
I did, but it's not about any commission I'll be losing!

It is my choice, plain and simple as that!

[bb1web]

If people don't want programs to be interested in getting a certification / approval at any certain site the simple answer is don't go there and they will quickly lose interest in paying large amounts of money to preach to a paid / empty choir.

As was mentioned to me ... (insert red-faced smilie here for not doing it sooner) ... vote with your feet.

------------------------------------------------



I've kinda got off track here. Was there a list created?

[bb1web]

wow this thread is moving right along. that last post was about a page and a half behind the current posts. sorry.

[Betpartners]

Thank you BetPartners!

I did NOT bring WP into this, Shaun entered the thread of his own free will,
and wanted to know if they dropped the paid for seal, if I'd work with him, I
answered.

I have asked several affiliate programs if they are going to keep paying to
be certified, some answered, so remains quiet. The ones that answered, I
was waiting for their decission making was over, then make my decision,
but I went ahead and removed those also.

If it was only about making money, I sure wouldn't have removed the ones
I did, but it's not about any commission I'll be losing!

It is my choice, plain and simple as that!

Well going back over the threads think you will find that Shaun first posted up what an affiliate had written, and you said it was you and it snowballed but beyond that dont think it matters who said what first, we are were we are.

We have different opinons, a lot of us do, just a shame this is all so decisive.

Well hope it works out for you Jinnia, we may differ on this but i do sincerley hope the choice you have made works out ok for you, afterall thats what we all want, to make money for our efforts.

[Jinnia]

Well going back over the threads think you will find that Shaun first posted up what an affiliate had written, and you said it was you and it snowballed but beyond that dont think it matters who said what first, we are were we are.

We have different opinons, a lot of us do, just a shame this is all so decisive.

Well hope it works out for you Jinnia, we may differ on this but i do sincerley hope the choice you have made works out ok for you, afterall thats what we all want, to make money for our efforts.

Yes, Shaun did copy/paste somethang from a private email, but since it was
I who had said that, I let it be known, for I am not the type of person
who says thangs in private that I won't say in public.

Yes, we all have different opinions, and that is a good thang. Life would be so dull if we all thought/felt the same.

Sure, making money is good, but that's not why I began being an affiliate.
It was mainly to help keep my mind off of a sad time in life, and when I
battled with a casino pitboss, that's when I started my first site, (Ezboard),
to post informaion about the group of casinos. Then started registering as an affiliate.

Thank you Betpartners for the kind words!