The Affiliate Union

[TheBoyMitchell]

This is completly wrong.

Years ago, a bunch of affiliates, right here in the very forum DID in fact change the minds of MANY operators, and to this day gambling affiliates the world over owe them all a great debt.

It was that very group of affiliates that convinced operators to stop negative carry-overs.

This was all done without a union.

Do we need a union now, maybe, maybe not.

Am I against what the Uniion is about? That is difficult to answer since their site is not live, but from what has been presented so far, I am not against what they stand for.

The only thing I am worried about mainly is that if this divides the community more, then it could make it more difficult for them to accomplish their goals, and also diminish the value of the forums and communities that have existed for years.

Rick
Universal4

Hey Rick

I think this is what I was trying to say, but unfortunately the myopic massive seem to just be happy to take certain words out of my posts and use them for their own means.

I think what they would have preferred was this;

'OMG LOLZZZZZ Thatz the bestest ever ever ever idea and I am 1000000 percent behind you, i think you will be awesome LOL - go stick it to the mann BRB i cant beleive how cool you guys are.'

Whereas I prefer to ask some questions, and then get hoo haa about it. And the reason I get hoo haa'd? Not because its a good idea (I have repeatedly said it *is* a good idea), but because, and I choose my words carefully here, and mean every word I say....

the people endorsing this and getting excited about this have absolutely no more clue about this than I do, and for the most, are the most vociferous and excitable on this forum.

Yeah - I said it. You cant be arsed to read my posts and come back with intelligent comments. Instead you prefer to make comments about 'I dont know what I am on about' and 'cardboard box' thinking. Take a line out of my post and reinterpret it. Go you - you're the best.

I am out of this conversation unless you want me to continue. No-one, apart from Aussie Dave appears to know whats properly going on (and I dont know him, as opposed to knowing about greek39s banter with me when he was grumbling about AffUtd; MSNing Gamtrak when she was mugged off by Louis about the Affiliate reports on the casinos they tested. chuckling with Pat about shizzle etc) To all the others on this thread, some of who I know through having been an Affiliate manager, and some through MSN etc, I suggest you wind it in, until the thing is launched.

The only person on this thread who has commented *anything* apart from absolute, unwavering, niaive support to have been Bonustreak, and she isnt being torn apart - but then I forget; you are all mates arent you

You may be excited about it, but until its launched and you can tell me and the other millions of affiliates whats going on, I would keep it buttoned. Unless you want to post, and then do so - but do it properly, and express you issues and aims, as opposed to segmenting opinion and offering *absolutely no value apart from being a bunch of excitable prom queens (and kings)* then you have nothing to offer here.

Yeah so mug me off. Take lines out of my texts and reinterpret them. Do what you like - I genuinly dont care. All I have ever said through my posts is that I would love it to do well, but if you are gonna do it, do it properly and do it with teeth.

The frustrating thing is that I probably know a lot of people on the inside who themselves have been marginalised, let down and had their own ambitions and ideals compromised and have such left the operator side and that you guys could really really beneift with by talking to them

Rant over. Go ahead and do it and make it work. Prove me wrong. If you cant come to an accord with my posts, then you have no ******* chance with an unscrupulous casino operator. They dont get to be billionaires by giving a **** about you after all, do they.

[GamTrak]

Hi Neil,

Personally, I was just saying that YOU are speaking for folks that can speak for themselves so that we know THIER position.

I value all input in this and you are entitled to your opinion. I just wish you did not have to take it so personal.

[giggles7p]

Alright, lets look at it your way, and hodegy's way - We have people that have pull in the industry and have well known names and respect within our business, yet has anything changed with there pressure and communications with "said programs"?

Has Grand Prive' been closed down?
What about the microgaming programs now changing t&c's, have they removed them??
What about rival casinos having faulty slots and missing symbols or not paying for jackpot wins, have they taken care of these issues?
What about programs refusing to pay an affiliate because "they say" the player is not theres?

There are plenty of issues that these programs are still ignoring and treating the affiliate badly and hurting all of our lively hoods. I am sorry that I hold out hope that any and all new affiliate gatherings with the aim at our better interest would be welcomed and not discouraged.

I am also taking care of some of these issues myself, by calling and emailing the software programs that support these problem casinos and affiliate programs, and insisting they step in and fix their messes instead of ignoring what these places are doing and making their software look bad, even to those that have good reputations. I will continue to do so until someone acknowledges me and responds with action, if they don't then they will get sick of hearing from me. Now thats my right to do so, and no one should object to this, so why should we or I object to anyone else trying to accomplish something, in anyway they can.?

Pat

I am not being negative.

Just because a person questions things, and possibly has a differing opinion you should not immediately accuse the person of being negative.

Differences of opinion ALWAYS occur, and this thread is a perfect example.



This may be premature since the site is not launched, but why is another avenue needed?

Are there not already plenty of places for this group of seasoned affiliates to speak out now?

Rick
Universal4

[universal4]

and no one should object to this

I didn't object to that....not once.

Rick
Universal4

[casinojack]

My 2 cents.

IMO, the best way i ever made money in companies i worked for was to not trash the competition, or point out the scum bags, but to push hard and promote the good guys..Same amount of time and energy with better rewards.

Wish you guys luck....

[bonustreak]

Excuse me I am stepping in real fast to explain I have no opinion of the union at this point, I asked a question and that was it nothing more, I in no way said I was against this so please leave me to speak for myself. I am at this point on a wait and see how things roll out on the 1st before I decide anything and if by some reason I don't join up I give this group kudos for doing what they believe is the right thing to do and I say stick to your guns and do what you think needs to be done to get this industry back on track. Now I have to finish packing for Budapest.

Cheers,

[pgaming]

I/we demand justice for all affiliates dam tired being locked behind these four walls. Enough is enough the con is or will be challenged beyond comprehension. Over the years I have seen it all, Grand Prive, T&C’s changed, payment issues, stat problems, player poaching, self interest groups, back room deals at the expense of others, personal data base sales, Gambling CD’s being mailed to my parents house, corrupted software, corrupt forums, content theft, cash stolen, player issues, bogus watch dogs groups like Ecogra, affiliates hacking affiliates, conferences housing rogue programs, and a assortment of other BS.

Sick of it already and the cons get away with it because they can. No more standing idle and letting things slip into a pile of rubbish. My remarks’ regarding AffUtd chiselled down as “grumbling” is a blatant understatement. Demonstrates your programs inability to take anything seriously with the exception for cash. Commerce, ethics, moral standards can and do coexist.

I am not looking for awards, recognition, respect, but something worth more fairness and equality for most. For some programs these are qualities not recognized and this is a fact.

Yeah so mug me off. Take lines out of my texts and reinterpret them. Do what you like - I genuinly dont care. All I have ever said through my posts is that I would love it to do well, but if you are gonna do it, do it properly and do it with teeth.

Then don’t care besides who are you to judge if something is proper or not. Did you forget you part of AffUtd. The same company so corrupt you make the Taliban look good. Teeth or fangs, which ever, my non-affiliates of ten will be in the wings.

My Personal Opinion


greek39

[TheBoyMitchell]

Hi greek39, quick last point. I dont work for AffUtd. I am now a full time aff.

[Pancho]

I think we got a give a chance to them. Of course we will have a better picture after October 1st but why not to believe..... It is true that is a huge challenge and in order to complete it they will have to do a lot but i appreciate someone who cares.

[MichaelCorfman]

There was a question raised earlier in this thread about whether there was support on the part of the GPWA for posting information on the Affiliate Union in this thread.

I want to reply most emphatically that, as executive director of the GPWA, I am fully committed to the GPWA supporting any ethical initiatives organized by affiliates, and that includes supporting the work done by affiliates no matter the context.

We've long supported Affiliate Guard Dog and the good work he does. As long as I have anything to do with the GPWA we will do exactly the same thing for any other organization working for the overall good of the industry.

I've already had some pm exchanges with Aussie Dave to that effect, and have provided him with some feedback that has, I think, helped him position the organization he is forming in a positive way.

I firmly believe in supporting creativity and new ways of looking at old problems.

Some of what the Affiliate Union may do will probably overlap a little with work we are doing, but sometimes attacking problems from multiple perspectives has that characteristic, and I want to be clear to everyone that I embrace that.

Grand Prive has been mentioned in this thread, so I would like to state that more is happening on that front. But the big issue there is that in spite of the fact that a good number of affiliates have banded together to make their displeasure clear, it is still a minority of affiliates. And it is still the case that many GPWA members have promotions up for the underlying operator. I've been doing some research in the background here, trying to understand the dynamics, and the picture is not that pretty from my perspective. I was going to do more work here before pointing out what I was seeing, but let me point folks to a page on the GPWA wiki where I was starting to organize some information on the related affiliate program Villa Fortuna topic. Take a look at this wiki page: www.gpwa.org/wiki//index.php?title=Villa_Fortuna. In the top 40 google search results there is a slightly greater percentage against Villa Fortuna than promoting it, but there are overall actually many more pages promoting Villa Fortuna than not.

Michael

[TheBoyMitchell]

Good post Michael.

Thats kinda my second pont. Some of you wont get it, cos you cant/wont read what I type - whatever.

Unfortunately there are just as many affiliates out there too who dont mind promoting anything as long as the money is right. Now, the downside to everyone dropping Casino 'x' is that these affiliates will pick it up specifically because fewer affiliates are promoting it. Easier to get your site to rank on long tail keywords for a casino that is not heavily promoted than it is to rank for long tail keywords on a heavily supported casino.

Which is why I still think that if you are going to do this, you have to have some form of legal clout and representation. Make AU a site that has clout, and can pass judgements and have the ability to enforce them.

The owners of these operators didnt become multi billionaires by listening to a few affiliates and going 'oh, terribly sorry affiliate 'x', we wont do that any more' - these rogue operators make their money *despite* you, and thats why you need more than a Greenpeace style of operating.

Anyway, its just my opinion, and I daresay Greek39 or someone wil be along soon to take a random line of this post and twist it out of proportion.

Plus ca change....

[Chalkie]

Good post from MC i agree and i also understand the points that you are making Neil, however, you must understand that to some people the AU is their baby and as such that they will support it against any critisism.

It will not be easy to make headway, however, the AU will have a dam good try, of that i am sure.

The points made in this thread have been with substance in the main, however, perhaps the points are already known by the AU founders.

I want to point out that no one making any critisism of the AU has actually stated that they do not or will not support it and of this i am gratefull, both as an afilliate and supporter of the AU.

Anyones constructive critism is welcomed, of course it is, it proves that the support is there.

All i ask is that people support the AU and allow it to make a position where it can support them back! Once the 1st of october comes along the doors will be open and everyone will be in a position to make use of the AU and allowed the chance to see if it will benefit them, to see if it will be able to make a difference.

No one can make a cast iron judgement before this time.

[GamTrak]

Thanks for posting Michael! THAT was all I wanted to hear.

[MichaelCorfman]

To draw more attention to this thread and to the work being done behind the scenes here I have created a poll question for this week's GPWA Times newsletter on the affiliate union.

You can see the poll question here: www.gpwa.org/forum/do-you-plan-participate-affiliate-union-183289.html.

And I think with this I will call it a day in the forums for me. I left Boston yesterday evening, and I am in Copenhagen at the moment. Later this evening I complete the last leg of my travel to Budapest. So it has been a long day, and I'm a bit exhausted right now.

Michael

[arkyt]

... by their ineffectiveness "the Todds, Casellis, Pratts, Corfmans" have abdicated their right to lead.

AMEN to that! The quicker the community at large comes to realize this the quicker things (possibly this union) and change will come about!

The day when websites such as this cease to charge our partners exorbanent amounts of money will no doubt be a glorious day!!!

[GCG]

Will there be an auditing team for programs too, have not seen that being mentioned for quite some time ?

Yeah it makes me feel sick the rogues............but have we checked programs lately for correct tracking of our players.......for months on a row?

What I want to say is........ have we done audits for programs to protect our players base? I think this at least as important as the rest (please wake up this industry is about money........)!

[aksana]

Just found this thread, and I'd like to say that I support any forums, any community, any unions which help gambling affiliates.

[Skinski]

I'll be looking forward to the first to get a further look into this Union.

[elgoog]

At the moment i do visit GPWA at first, the rest i take as an extra
as Michael says i am

supporting creativity and new ways of looking at ... problems.

i will be a member at AU when it's possible to sign up

[ck8795]

Im just gonna drop my two cents. I read through all of the posts and its the same stuff over and over again. Questions were asked and not answered and people bitching.

If you are going to organize something to better affiliates i think the tough questions need to be handled first before rallying support from affiliates.

Right now I think its on the same level as the affiliate program forum they were going to do/ are doing.

Its not organzied enough for someone like myself to say yeah I would back something like this regardless of who is running the show

BoyMitchell asked some pretty solid questions and instead of responding with, this information will be available when the site is launched he was basically **** on for being hesitant. I dont know who he is and I dont care, but those questions are very much valid

Lets say that you decide that operator 'x' is doing something that you agree with.

1. Who decides? Are you going to raise an issue and vote on it? Do *I* get a vote on it?
2. Who decides any penalty?
3. How are you going to enforce the penalty?
4. Who is on your legal team?
5. Who would be travelling to meet the operator concerned to outline the issues and represent us?
What powers would you have over an operator that ignores your judgement?

Some of my own include are you going to do this right across the board? By this I mean will AU be choosing who (meaning programs) they will fight the good fight against and ignore others. This is something we have seen in the past which had to do with relationships and something that makes me question how it will all come about.

How do you expect to get a company to pay an affiliate money owed?

Do you think press releases and bad pr is enough?

How are you going to handle a situation when a majority of affiliates refuse to pull ads and continue to promote?

If they are pulling in enough revenue from source A and source B has pulled ads..do you think your going to have enough pull to make sure that source B will get whats due to them?

Im not against something that helps others. I want to make that very clear before my posts gets mixed up with whatever someone says. But in the last year or so the one thing I have seen alot of is that people only fight for others when it plays a part in their lives. Not all..there are some like Mojo who doesnt give two cares who you are...if someone has done an affiliate wrong she will stand up for them. And there are others where they only speak when it effects their bottomline.

Im sorry if I sound negative but I've seen alot of negativity in this thread from the people who are supposed to be rallying for support.

Instead of knocking others down with valid concerns ....address them!