The Affiliate Union

[pgaming]

Grand Prive is still breathing, but they are hurting as well... they just don't want us to know we're getting to them. I was told by many operators at the conference that Grand Prive has been actively seeking out companies for media buys... they need traffic! I hear most of the conversations start with Grand Prive saying "I know you've heard bad things about us... but it isn't true!". So, I know we're hurting them... but we're not done yet. I think you know I have much more aggressive plans. My goal is to rip off various parts of their figurative anatomy and shove it up another portion of their figurative anatomy. But it takes time to plan and execute.

We have not done all we can to solve this issue. Much more is needed and coming... I promise. My goal is not to destroy Grand Prive. My goal is to get every webmaster paid their lifetime commissions as promised... and Grand Prive would be keen to take note of this if they want to stop the bleeding right now. Then I want to make certain this sort of thing never happens again.

Along the way to this goal, I plan a couple of detours... straight up the rear end Microgaming and eCOGRA. Things may get wild.

Now were talking JTodd and can honestly say you have done some pretty dam outstanding work. I completely agree Microgaming and eCOGRA is void of any common courtesy or acknowledgment of all the inroads the webmasters have paved for them.

Maybe if we let old grudges dwindle this would include by most, progress can be made. If we tackle issues like Grand Prive and many others as Mojo mentioned we may all enjoy a brighter future. Do most not share this common goal, I think so.



greek39

[giggles7p]

JTodd, now someone is finally talking my language!!!

I have been saying for months now that the way to get to rogue casinos is through their "SOFTWARE PROVIDER"!!!!....We need to make sure that Microgaming has full knowledge of the crap that some of their casinos are pulling, and if they support them, then they are part of the problem and need to be attacked as well, we can give them time to "take care of their rogued children" but if not addressed in a satisfying manner, then the boom gets lowered on them also. And damn it, the Microgaming casinos out there, like Casino Rewards, Brightshare, 32 Red, that are Good Microgaming Casinos, and represent Microgaming software in a respectable manner, need to jump on this train and tell there software provider that they will not stand for the tarnishing of THEIR reputation, by some rogue blacklisted casinos using the same software and microgaming needs to **** or get off the pot!!!!

I am all in on this, tell me where and when and how....I have done some email writting and plan to do some phone calling straight to microgaming itself, and will do it repeatedly everyday until someone gets sick and tired of my butt and gets on the phone and chats with me about this.

Pat

[Integrity]

It's the current retro terms. It's the current apalling Rome issue in the 'unethical' section here where a player was taken away from an affiliate... Hopelessness is the word IMO. We are not effective. I am extremely alarmed that we must accept the way things are. I do not agree with that. I do not accept that.

Neither do I accept it!

We are effective, more than you think. We just don't see it all the time. Affiliates can sometimes get bored and/or give up too quickly if they don't see tangible results. But sometimes the truth is you just can't see them... sometimes you have to wait for them...

In either event, I am not accepting things and I am not hopeless and I am not giving up. I wish everyone felt this way, but I do certainly understand and respect how you feel. However, there's a lot of fight left in this dog.

================================================== ===

My belief is that every affiliate deserves a vote. Whether its me or arkyt or you... Let us speak as one.

That's my point exactly. Most of us are speaking as one, but not all. Arkyt did not post a solution or a contribution or an idea or anything new or creative. He came to this thread to disrupt, IMHO. And that opinion is based on a long history of watching him operate for several years now. If he wants to offer someting... anything... to help solve our issues instead of throwing fuel on the fire, by all means let's hear it. My strong suspicion, however, is that this is not the case.

================================================== ===

Maybe if we let old grudges dwindle this would include by most, progress can be made. If we tackle issues like Grand Prive and many others as Mojo mentioned we may all enjoy a brighter future. Do most not share this common goal, I think so.

I do have a tendency to speak my mind, sometimes to a fault. I have also learned to be more diplomatic over the past year under Michaels guidance. However, I must balance that with being true to myself. To that end, I will work with anyone... and I mean anyone... who want's to sincerly accomplish positive changes for the industry... be that Arkyt or Carruso or Jim-Bob Smith!

In fact, I did not mention this in the forums, but I extended an invitation to Carruso via private message to meet me in Budapest and share a drink and some thoughts. He accepted, and we spoke face to face for about half an hour or so. Many of you know that I have often butted heads and dissagreed with Carruso over the years, but I wanted to meet with him and work out our differences. I want to stop the in-fighting. I am trying to keep our side of this industry as united as possible. This is why I do not like to see people come into a thread... which had turned out mostly positive and was wraping up... and turn it on it's head again by trying to instigate trouble. That's what I believe Arkyt was doing.

Let's stop the petty crap with one another... stop the insults and the flames... stop living in the mistakes of the past... stop holding on to old grudges... Let's put our colective intelligence to better use and kick some ass.... not hurt one another.

[mojo]

Neither do I accept it!

We are effective, more than you think. We just don't see it all the time. Affiliates can sometimes get bored and/or give up too quickly if they don't see tangible results. But sometimes the truth is you just can't see them... sometimes you have to wait for them...

In either event, I am not accepting things and I am not hopeless and I am not giving up. I wish everyone felt this way, but I do certainly understand and respect how you feel. However, there's a lot of fight left in this dog.

================================================== ===



That's my point exactly. Most of us are speaking as one, but not all. Arkyt did not post a solution or a contribution or an idea or anything new or creative. He came to this thread to disrupt, IMHO. And that opinion is based on a long history of watching him operate for several years now. If he wants to offer someting... anything... to help solve our issues instead of throwing fuel on the fire, by all means let's hear it. My strong suspicion, however, is that this is not the case.

================================================== ===



I do have a tendency to speak my mind, sometimes to a fault. I have also learned to be more diplomatic over the past year under Michaels guidance. However, I must balance that with being true to myself. To that end, I will work with anyone... and I mean anyone... who want's to sincerly accomplish positive changes for the industry... be that Arkyt or Carruso or Jim-Bob Smith!

In fact, I did not mention this in the forums, but I extended an invitation to Carruso via private message to meet me in Budapest and share a drink and some thoughts. He accepted, and we spoke face to face for about half an hour or so. Many of you know that I have often butted heads and dissagreed with Carruso over the years, but I wanted to meet with him and work out our differences. I want to stop the in-fighting. I am trying to keep our side of this industry as united as possible. This is why I do not like to see people come into a thread... which had turned out mostly positive and was wraping up... and turn it on it's head again by trying to instigate trouble. That's what I believe Arkyt was doing.

Let's stop the petty crap with one another... stop the insults and the flames... stop living in the mistakes of the past... stop holding on to old grudges... Let's put our colective intelligence to better use and kick some ass.... not hurt one another.

I have an unfortunate tendancy to speak my mind too lol. My Joe shakes his head LOL.

You certainly are effective JTodd. You have been at this for a very long time. Kudos!

However, outspoken as I am, it is not enough. We are in crisis here.

We are effective, more than you think. We just don't see it all the time. Affiliates can sometimes get bored and/or give up too quickly if they don't see tangible results. But sometimes the truth is you just can't see them... sometimes you have to wait for them...

As you know I myself have unresolved issues that I have been screaming about for at least SIX MONTHS. That is not cool and please believe me when I say it is no ones fault. However, I will not sit by and wait months on end for something to happen. It's time to take it on ourselves.

That is no reflection on you JTodd. Please believe my sincere thank you for helping. It's just that at this time, we need more.

He came to this thread to disrupt, IMHO.

I don't know if I believe that. I believe arkyt came to this thread to remind us of what has failed in the past. Yes, it's not pleasant but it's true.

At any rate JTodd, I can't say enough how much I appreciate your efforts. I hope we can get together and brainstorm and kick some serious butt!

[GCG]

I have been saying for months now that the way to get to rogue casinos is through their "SOFTWARE PROVIDER"!!!!....

Well I mentioned this option a long time ago but I do not know if any software provider wants to mediate or cancelling the license to a rogue group e.g. Redhotrevenue.

Playtechs answer :

Thank you for contacting us with your inquiry. However, we regret to inform you that Playtech cannot be of service to you in this matter.

As a software provider, we cannot interfere in the marketing relationship between a casino and its partners. Unfortunately, we are not in a position to help in the handling of issues that may arise from your own contractual relations with the casino.

We suggest that you approach the casino directly for resolution of your complaint.

We wish you the best of luck in clearing up any open issues with Universal Gaming and regret that we are unable to be of assistance.

Kindest Regards

A. P.
Complaints Officer

Basically : we do business with bad operators as long as they pay the money............and go F yourself.

Now I am not amused with their answer and want to add some pages for complaints about the software provider too if they do not wish to ophold fair business ethics to whoever Playtech grants their license.

[Integrity]

...we regret to inform you that Playtech cannot be of service to you in this matter.

As a software provider, we cannot interfere in the marketing relationship between a casino and its partners.

PROBLEM: They don't care because it doesn't affect them.


SOLUTION: Make it affect them!


.

[GamTrak]

Great post JTodd! You are exactly right! If we can do this then we can achieve a great deal for the industry as a whole and more so for affiliates!

Let's stop the petty crap with one another... stop the insults and the flames... stop living in the mistakes of the past... stop holding on to old grudges... Let's put our colective intelligence to better use and kick some ass.... not hurt one another.

Motto for the day: Check the EGO at the screen and get to work on positive things.

[Nandakishore]

Let's stop the petty crap with one another... stop the insults and the flames... stop living in the mistakes of the past... stop holding on to old grudges... Let's put our colective intelligence to better use and kick some ass.... not hurt one another.

GAU must first do a crucial homework before getting into any details. They must find answers to two questions:

1. What can GAU deliver which the others - GPWA. APCW, AGD ... - cannot?
   There is no point in duplicating anything.
2. Can GAU use that unique product as a 'carrot' to convince a significant number of affiliates to 'put our colective intelligence to better use and kick some ass.... not hurt one another'?

Precise answers to these two questions are IMO prerequisties for starting a Union with chance of success.

[arkyt]

AGD, APCW and GPWA.

What makes you think that AU/GAU will better represent our collective interest than the ones I mention above?

A union will still be run by affiliates, meaning that decisions will/could be made based on the financial interests of the parties running the union/making the decisions.

In order for an association to be truly independent and act in our collective interest, it would have to be manned by non affiliates.

IMO not one of those sites you listed represents my interest as an affiliate - and I have been told by at least one of the primary operators that they do NOT wish to do so either.

Further, I'm not convinced this venture (AU/GAU) will do so either, but a good start is that they will not be bilking my partners for cash to advertise to fictitious numbers.

I disagree that an organization can't be unbiased in its activities - if the organization isn't having their pockets filled with platinum monies they should be able to remain unbiased regardless of personal relationships - at least as it relates to the organization. That should be complimented by diversity of those involved - the more people on the board should assist in transcending bias and personal agendas.

[Nandakishore]

Further, I'm not convinced this venture (AU/GAU) will do so either, but a good start is that they will not be bilking my partners for cash to advertise to fictitious numbers.

Who are your partners?

[Integrity]

IMO not one of those sites you listed represents my interest as an affiliate...

Please enlighten us an to just what interest of yours have not being addressed? Is our pursuit of the Grand Prive issues not something that's not on your radar? Was our reporting on the Terms and Conditions changes not up to your standards? Do we not address most every issue within our means that affects webmasters in this industry? Have APCW, GPWA, and AGD not done more than any other organizations since 2006 to educate and inform players and affiliates about the UIGEA?

I could go on and on at risk of sounding pretentious, but I will not. Rather, I really --- honest to God truly --- wanna know exactly what pressing issues you have burning in your soul that these organizations have ignored? In fact, I think everyone wants to hear them.


================================================== ==

I disagree that an organization can't be unbiased in its activities - if the organization isn't having their pockets filled with platinum monies they should be able to remain unbiased regardless of personal relationships...

Based on Affiliate Guard Dog findings, the APCW just called out Playshare on their T&C changes... Playshare is an APCW Member. We also called out Roxy and Vegas Affiliates, both of who are GPWA members. So get that little bug out of your rear end right now if unless you can PROVE we have acted in an unethical way to do a conflict of interest.

And by the way, there is not ONE affiliate, operator, or software provider in this industry who DOES NOT profit from his industry in some way. Therefore, there is NO ONE in this industry that could ever be 100% above reproach in this regard. Only a person with ZERO ties to online gambling could be considered "unbiased"... and God knows even they would probably have to deal with bribery and/or the appearance of bribery.

Do you still have portals, by the way? If so, would you like to list them here so that we can all look them over and decide what programs you're promoting that we might have issues with? Maybe a few of us would like you to stop promoting certain sites because we believe they don't operate in our best interest. But then again, nevermind. I really don't have any PROOF that you're intentionally acting in an unethical manner... so perhaps I should shut my mouth and act more responsibly.

[Fergie]

Stop bashing each other. You're on the same side, goddamnit.

[Caruso]

I think, unlikely to be effective in reality.

Take Grand Privè: you're all up in arms more than anything else, but as mentioned, members here still promote Grand Privè - and Grand Privè is the creme de la creme of united affiliates.

Unless you can enforce a boycott with banners down across the board, you will have no bargaining power and no teeth. And you will unlikely ever to be able to enforce a boycott - see above comment about Grand Privè. In fact, if you can get ONE other member, who is NOT directly affected by an issue, to pull his banners in your support, I would be very surprised. But of course, they will all say they will.

It's all about money and short sighted, short term gain. This is the gambling industry, populated by and large by narrow minded, shallow thinking, money grabbing hypocrtites. You cannot change that.

When Grand Privè chose to accept an underage gambler's deposits, then suddenly noticed she was underage when she won and refused to pay her, did you all pull your Grand Privè banners in support, saying "do the right thing, pay up and we'll all put you back"?

When you heard that Casino Club had decided to withhold €200,000 in player deposits and jackpot winnings, did you all say "well OK, I can see there's a problem there for you, but for the time being and until you can sort this out, I won't be promoting you", or are you all still promoting Casino Club?

Have you all told Fortune Affiliates you'd be pulling their banners until they changed their BS player terms, or are you still promoting them?

If you can think about that for a minute without getting steamed, you'll see my point. You cannot have clout without action, and sorry, but I am 99.999% sure there will be no action. Not even no effective action, but none at all.

[arkyt]

Stop bashing each other. You're on the same side, goddamnit.

That's the problem - there are no sides - there is no unity and as long as the same characters are heading up the pack there will be no change. As gooner so eloquently stated earlier in this thread "by their ineffectiveness "the Todds, Casellis, Pratts, Corfmans" have abdicated their right to lead..."

For the most part, and obviously, everyone here works for themselves. Most don't give a rats ass about anyone but themselves. It's human nature - it's a rat race and theres no time to slow down; most have to make another buck and some will do it at any expense.

I've been outspoken and passionate since day one - I'm not going to hold back my thoughts on a matter just to keep from hurting someones feelings. If someone ask me a question or for an opinion - they will get a straight from the hip no BS response!

For what its worth I never got involved in this thread to bash anyone - all I stated was that IMO not one of the sites mentioned represented the affiliates best interest - it seems that someone took that as an attack and went on the defensive - so be it; that doesn't change my opinion on the matter. That we would all be better off without GPWA / CAP etc in their current capacities... I don't see that as a personal bash - just an opinion.

[pgaming]

Instead of attacking individual affiliates we should be aggressively perusing these corrupt gaming outfits. With enough brute force affs dealing with rogue programs will likely drop them naturally. It would make good business sense to do so.

In other words, we bomb these programs so badly their very web existence is stained to the point no aff would go near them. And yes these bad programs may have other methods, email, media buys etc… But if we continue to kick hard enough and keep the pressure on this would not be viable either. Therefore alleviating the need to tell a fellow colleague he/she promotes rogues.

Plus we introduce some new tactics, blogs, conference protests, domain squatting (yes legal IMO), who knows I just may visit Grand Prive throw the footage on Youtube.

The respectable programs benefits because it will increase revenue IMO. The Webmaster benefits for obvious reasons, and a very important spin off from all this work is the player benefits.

Can we affiliates bury a few grudges and make this happen? Take 15 minutes out of your day and start doing something.

My vision anyway…

greek39

[pgaming]

That's the problem - there are no sides - there is no unity and as long as the same characters are heading up the pack there will be no change. As gooner so eloquently stated earlier in this thread "by their ineffectiveness "the Todds, Casellis, Pratts, Corfmans" have abdicated their right to lead..."

I in part agree this is why it must be individual affiliates collectively working together. Again this is not about the GPWA, CAP, or whatever other board out there. Rather this is about us, the affiliate.

One last thought, really want this to work for everyone. The theft of all kinds has to stop and now.

greek39

[Integrity]

That's the problem - there are no sides - there is no unity...

There's been a lot of goofy stuff tossed about in this thread, but I think that quote is head and shoulders above any other ignorant statement here. There are no sides? There is no unity? Really? And why is that? Because we didn't fawn all over iGAMI and come running when you called? Because we didn't fall in line when you decided how things should be done? Because no one sang your praises when you and you alone thought you somehow had the solved the mystery of peace, integrity, ethics, and harmonious balance in the online gaming universe? Horse Poop!

You've had a chip on your shoulder for years about all of this. There are reasons why organizations other than iGAMI have gone on to grow and be productive while your project did not. If you want to believe it's because some mythological power elite have somehow managd to sabotaged your success then stick with that story. I suppose it's easier to blame others for all the bad fortune rather than look at yourself and your tactics. Now, your only hope for satisfaction is that we fail to accomplish our goals. However, I plan to disappoint you.

================================================== =

...and as long as the same characters are heading up the pack there will be no change. "...the Todds, Casellis, Pratts, Corfmans" have abdicated their right to lead..."...

I dunno what kinda crack you're smoking, but put the pipe down before you post. Caselli is a magazine editor. Pratt runs conferences. And the GPWA and APCW have collectively accomplished 100 times more than anything you or iGAMI has ever even contemplated. I am sick to death of your whining and griping about everyone else when you, sir, have been so grossly ineffective and lend absolutely nothing positive to this forum, these issues, or this industry.


================================================== =

...we would all be better off without GPWA....

That's odd. Seems we've been doing pretty well without your tutoring. In fact, this thread was about to end on a positive note until you popped in and stirred the pot. Seems to me the truth is that we would all be better off without... well...

================================================== =

Unless you can enforce a boycott with banners down across the board, you will have no bargaining power and no teeth.

Hello, Guy. It was nice to meet you in Budapest. I have said for years that boycotts are not effective. They do not work. Much of my reasoning is the same as yours. However, the APCW and GPWA have an obligation to do our level best in these situations. The possibility of failure should not be a prerequisite for giving up without a fight.

I realize your concerns about the player issues. There was a time when webmasters were not as involved with player issues as we should have been. Even now, it's difficult for an affiliate organization to get deeply involved with individual player problems which are best left to Casinomeister. We should, however, focus our attentions on larger player issues... such as Microgaming poker rooms shutting down without paying out.

That said, I cannot go back and undo the past. All we can do is try like hell going forward. I think that you know I am serious and dedicated and genuine in my goals, as I know you are. But I encourage you to remind us of the past in such a way that we do not repeat our mistakes. You have the ability to impact these situations in a positive way, and I hope you choose to be with us as an encouragement.

================================================== =

I hope that we can salvage something from this thread which we can use. If you have come here to preach about every wrong thing that anyone did to you in 2005, or conspiracy theories without any evidence, of how no one likes you, or "the man" is keeping you down... go elsewhere.

However, if you can wrap your head around the fact that the rogue programs and operators are reading this and laughing at you... and the reputable programs are shaking their heads... and the good affiliates see this thread and grow more and more discouraged.... then let's put the stupid stuff in the past and work together.

.

[GamTrak]

Very accurate post JTodd!

I've been around and read a lot of what both of the guys above have posted over the YEARS at places like Winner Online & CAP and YOU have describe the situation perfectly. All anyone has to do is google the keywords to find the posts made in the past that shows what you are saying.

Kudos to you!

I really hope that we get this all out of our systems and move on.

[pgaming]

I really hope that we get this all out of our systems and move on.

Although I cannot speak for Arykt but think he has some valid views as does Jtodd. I hope soon these differences can be but aside or resolved so we can move forward.

greek39

[Caruso]

For the most part, and obviously, everyone here works for themselves. Most don't give a rats ass about anyone but themselves. It's human nature - it's a rat race and theres no time to slow down; most have to make another buck and some will do it at any expense.

Exactly the situation. Anything else is opportunistic delusion.

You have (had?) CAP, you have GPWA, you have GIA (and that has a genuinely based, if unlikely to succeed, player focus). Why do you need another?

Is the splintering off of another faction for the benefit of others? Or is it an aspect of leader-of-the-pack mentality?

You need to choose an organisation and go with it. If you keep on splintering you only devalue. Taking that to its logical conclusion you will end up with as many organisations as there are individuals, which is where you are now.

I have said for years that boycotts are not effective. They do not work. Much of my reasoning is the same as yours. However, the APCW and GPWA have an obligation to do our level best in these situations. The possibility of failure should not be a prerequisite for giving up without a fight.

Granted the responsibility of a big organisation. But boycotts are effective if everyone respects them. As I said, this being a gimme-my-money business, it will never happen - THAT is why they aren't effective in practice. Boycotts cost affiliates money. Affiliates will never make that selfless sacrifice. Kid yourself otherwise (the collective "you") and you are delusional.

I realize your concerns about the player issues. There was a time when webmasters were not as involved with player issues as we should have been. Even now, it's difficult for an affiliate organization to get deeply involved with individual player problems which are best left to Casinomeister. We should, however, focus our attentions on larger player issues... such as Microgaming poker rooms shutting down without paying out.

Nothing should be left to any one individual. I had kind of hoped GIA would fill the player void, as they have a charter specifically geared towards it, but that appears rather stalled right now. I would encourage all big organisations to not pay lip service to players. This is, of course, totally outside the scope of the proposed Affiliate Union.

It isn't just affiliates who don't listen, bother or support. Players are no different. If players had listened to their peers after Tusk went down with $5,500,000 of their money last year, they wouldn't have patronised Eurolinx, which has now gone down with another currently uncertain but enormous sum of player cash. But of course, no player answered the call for a Prima Poker / Microgaming boycott. Why? Loose games and the high rakeback.

(And of course, no affiliate batted an eyelid. Goes without saying. Will any of you, now? Of course not.)

M-O-N-E-Y.

Affiliates and players alike care only for themselves. That's why none of this will work. Frankly, I would just go on working for yourselves as now. The odd disaster aside, doesn't seem so bad.